Yeah, some people really hate it, and it usually ends with someone calling someone a petaQ
star trek enterprise - fifteen years later
- Thread starter KrangPrime
- Start date
Yeah, some people really hate it, and it usually ends with someone calling someone a petaQ
I like it. It's just not a TOS prequel.
Maybe they could have worked it into canon that it was the tech was too expensive so they went towards a more uniform and cheaper way of doing things for mass production. That way you could use the same bridge setup on dozens of ship types. It'd fit in better with TOS that way, though in a way it really would have fit in as a prequel to next gen with this enterprise being in between the C and D.
Not sure what you're saying here... You mean that the Enterprise on Enterprise fits between the -C and the -D?
Zombie_61
Master Member
Actually, if you think about it, at this point it's the Original Series that doesn't quite fit within the rest of the Trek universe, at least as far as aesthetics are concerned. It's the only series with an Enterprise that has minimal surface detail and none of those damned Aztec panels, unlike everything that came after Star Trek: The Motion Picture. It's the only series with brightly colored uniforms and interiors--everything that came after had far more muted colors, and even The Next Generation quickly limited the blue "sciences" uniforms to medical staff only. From that perspective, Enterprise fits into the Trek universe far better than the Original Series does.
By the way, I'm familiar with all of the real-world explanations for this, so I don't need them explained to me; I'm simply expressing an observation.
By the way, I'm familiar with all of the real-world explanations for this, so I don't need them explained to me; I'm simply expressing an observation.
Enh... We did see a decent number of Science division folks in the TNG/DS9/VOY era (not least of whom was Dax), and I always felt like Operations covered too much. Engineering, Security, and Operations all under one division? I liked the granularity of the movie era uniforms -- a good ten departmental colors, if you include cadets/trainees. And speaking of, one of the several reasons I wish the TMP uniforms could be retconned out of existence is that I like the continuity of going from the Cage/WNM uniforms (black pants, colored tops with matching collars) to the series uniforms (black pants, colored tops with black collars) to the TWOK uniforms (black pants, colored top with matching collars again, just like the Cage version)... Only difference with that last is that now they're wearing a jacket over the shirt. Some of us in the fandom joked that they must have turned the environmental controls a few degrees cooler during the movies to save energy or keep the crew alert or some such. *heh*
As for the ships... I like the clean look of the miniatures prior to the 4-foot Enterprise-D. When they started adding all that surface texture to the models for "visual excitement" I just thought it emphasized that they were models. I like the painted hull-plating effect for making a smooth surface look like a larger-scale assemblage of pieces. It's a great way to do that without excessive greebling. Even the original had subtle cues like that, had the cameras/film stock had enough resolution to distinguish it. I'm fine with the progression of, say, DY-100 to Phoenix/Bonaventure to Leif Ericson to ringship-Enterprise to Daedalus to Constitution and so forth. The level of detailing is fairly consistent.
Fair enough. I do try to only go into that sort of thing when it seems there's a need for it. I like your observations, and I don't feel the need to get all explain-y at you. Easy enough just to give my own impressions in non-essay form.
--Jonah
Zombie_61
Master Member
Did we? I barely made it through most of TNG only because it was more interesting than most of what was on television at the time; it never really felt like Star Trek to me. I watched the first few episodes of DS9 and quickly realized it was going to be more of the same, so I gave up on it rather quickly. As for Voyager, I saw the first episode and thought it was complete rubbish.
I give them credit for trying something new with the TMP uniforms, but they looked like a bunch of adult-sized toddlers in onesies. I really like the uniforms from TWOK on (until The Next Generation went back to the onesies, that is) simply because they seemed more practical; the fact that they looked better didn't hurt. As for the jackets, the actors were getting up in years and probably beginning to feel their ages a bit, so I'm pretty sure they appreciated the extra warmth on some of those air-conditioned sets.
I agree. Beginning with TMP it was pretty clear that someone at Paramount believed they had to compete with the success of Star Wars, and decided the ships "needed something more" visually. And that was one of a number of reasons that the Original Series was remastered - big screen high-definition televisions were becoming more prominent, and they felt the original Enterprise should be more visually interesting (excluding for a moment that the flaws in the original effects would also be more evident). So we ended up with Starfleet ships that looked like they had some form of skin disease on the hull plating, and by the time they got to the NCC-1701-E it was just out of control. Sometimes, less really is more.
I loved Enterprise from Broken Bow to These Are the Voyages.
I completed my 4th watch through of Seasons 1 to 4 last week.
I completed my 4th watch through of Seasons 1 to 4 last week.
astroboy
Master Member
If you want to stick with the good stuff, start with the final episode of the second season.
astroboy
Master Member
To me, from that point on they became a bit more like SG-1. Less standalone episodes. Everything went toward a much larger arc. There was a bit more action, but the stories were pretty good. AND it all occurred in unknown territory so there was less of an opportunity to mess with continuity.
The only thing you need to know before going into that season is that there is a temporal cold war. Factions from the future are trying to upset the timeline so they can manipulate the future.
^ Yeah. That's been an ongoing issue with Trek... pretty much since the beginning. Gene was from the old-school approach of self-contained episodes that could be aired in any order. Even in the '60s there were shows that did longform storytelling. Certainly by the '70s and '80s. When Maurice Hurley came onto TNG late in season one, he wanted to do the same. Set up the Borg in the season finale, build up to the reveal in by mid season two, have the Federation ultimately rally the Alpha Quadrant powers to defeat them (by force or diplomacy or whatever) by the end of the season or early third... But Gene emphatically said no. And Berman carried that episodic mindset forward to DS9, Voyager, and Enterprise. Each of those shows broke free of those bonds to varying degrees, thanks to others making it happen, and I'm hoping one day we'll see good Trek told longform. Which is a good segue to...
If you're willing, I think you should maybe at least give DS9 another chance. The first year was very stilted as they found their characters. The last couple episodes of that season were stellar, though. The second season was annoyingly inconsistent, but then things jelled toward the end, and from the third season on it's mostly terrific. You can practically see the shift when Ira Behr and Ron Moore took over. It doesn't quite get to th epoint of installments of one single long story, but close. Voyager is much more hit-and-miss, and does definitely have its own set of flaws, but there are some gems scattered throughout the series. PM me if you want specific episode recommendations.
...I counter with the hot stage lights while wearing wool jackets. But you've pretty much hit it on the head with the aging actors thing. Jackets are an easy way to effect shaping, and we get to avoid the old Shatner Girdle Line from TOS.
Totally agree. It's like the lazy way to do ship design -- especially for bigger ships. The original filming miniature for TOS had some subtle markings, faint weathering... It was gorgeous when seen in high-resolution. I don't know if you stick your head in over in the modelling sections, but have you seen trekriffic's Leif Ericson build? The link goes to a late post with many pictures of the completed model, but I recommend reading the whole thread. Historic thumbnail, for those who don't know: This was a ship designed by Jeffires for amt/ERTL in the '60s, and I and others feel it fits in nicely as a late 21st-century Earth ship for the Trek universe, even though it wasn't created for Trek. Some shared cues with the DY series, for instance.
I bring up both the ship and the build because the two together are a perfect example of what we're on about. Jeffries favored clean designs. Space is a harsh environment and he didn't want ship exteriors studded with components the crew would have to don spacesuits to go out and service or replace. And the builder of this particular model took a lot of cues from Jeffries' work and the Enterprise filming miniature, plus his own version of "aztecing" to imply welded together hull plates without the excessive step of scribed lines or "stepped" panels, as with the 4-foot Enterprise-D or the NX-01. Subtle works. It just requires patience and skill. *raised eyebrow* Make of that statement what you will...
--Jonah
If you're willing, I think you should maybe at least give DS9 another chance. The first year was very stilted as they found their characters. The last couple episodes of that season were stellar, though. The second season was annoyingly inconsistent, but then things jelled toward the end, and from the third season on it's mostly terrific. You can practically see the shift when Ira Behr and Ron Moore took over. It doesn't quite get to th epoint of installments of one single long story, but close. Voyager is much more hit-and-miss, and does definitely have its own set of flaws, but there are some gems scattered throughout the series. PM me if you want specific episode recommendations.
I give them credit for trying something new with the TMP uniforms, but they looked like a bunch of adult-sized toddlers in onesies. I really like the uniforms from TWOK on (until The Next Generation went back to the onesies, that is) simply because they seemed more practical; the fact that they looked better didn't hurt. As for the jackets, the actors were getting up in years and probably beginning to feel their ages a bit, so I'm pretty sure they appreciated the extra warmth on some of those air-conditioned sets.
...I counter with the hot stage lights while wearing wool jackets.
But you've pretty much hit it on the head with the aging actors thing. Jackets are an easy way to effect shaping, and we get to avoid the old Shatner Girdle Line from TOS.Totally agree. It's like the lazy way to do ship design -- especially for bigger ships. The original filming miniature for TOS had some subtle markings, faint weathering... It was gorgeous when seen in high-resolution. I don't know if you stick your head in over in the modelling sections, but have you seen trekriffic's Leif Ericson build? The link goes to a late post with many pictures of the completed model, but I recommend reading the whole thread. Historic thumbnail, for those who don't know: This was a ship designed by Jeffires for amt/ERTL in the '60s, and I and others feel it fits in nicely as a late 21st-century Earth ship for the Trek universe, even though it wasn't created for Trek. Some shared cues with the DY series, for instance.
I bring up both the ship and the build because the two together are a perfect example of what we're on about. Jeffries favored clean designs. Space is a harsh environment and he didn't want ship exteriors studded with components the crew would have to don spacesuits to go out and service or replace. And the builder of this particular model took a lot of cues from Jeffries' work and the Enterprise filming miniature, plus his own version of "aztecing" to imply welded together hull plates without the excessive step of scribed lines or "stepped" panels, as with the 4-foot Enterprise-D or the NX-01. Subtle works. It just requires patience and skill. *raised eyebrow* Make of that statement what you will...
--Jonah
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KrangPrime
Master Member
for me, ds9 just came off as boring and stilited. i also didn't care for the boring bajoran aspect/religion aspect.
at least tng had a ship named enterrpise and they explored a little.
DS9 was stuck in one place and the explorers came to them :/..
Voyager wasn't too bad, but they played it way too safe. and after seven of nine came inand took over it got worse, I think. but, I guess your character takes over when you start banging braga....never quite had much respect for ryan after that for some reason.
what could anyone find interesting about braga?
They actually broke out of that fairly quickly. Between the Runabouts and the Defiant, they spent a good chunk of time seeking out strange new worlds, et cetera.
--Jonah
So, no real difference than. Whether you're on a station that resides in one place, or a starship that goes all over the place, it's still the same set and characters. The advantage that DS9 had was that it could take elements that made Star Trek unique (It's aliens) and really build from it. You can't really develop any culture outside of depicting them as one-note caricature who EW never seen or heard from again. When you're 'stuck' with Bajorans and Cardassians, you're given a lot of room to see what their cultures are like and how it affects the Star Trek universe as a whole. And in DS9's case, it affected a lot!
Seeing a well established franchise from a different perspective is very important. Deep Space Nine answered one the one question that no Trekkie has asked. Once you've successfully sought out new life and new civilizations, what then? Will these civilizations become allies, enemies, neutral ect? It's easy to find something, say hi, leave and never come back. But when you've got to live with it, that's where the real challenge is.
KrangPrime
Master Member
yep, i know. i eventually went back and rewatched itand enjoyed it for what it was. it was nice for something different, but it didn't feel like trek.
a tad too violent.
Zombie_61
Master Member
Interesting. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Jeffries had designed the Leif Ericson for Star Trek and that they were planning to use it, which is why it was kitted in the first place. They obviously decided not to, but I do agree that it would have fit into the Trek universe nicely. I've been building models since the late 60s, and I had the kit when it was originally released; I might just have to pick up the reissue.
Trekriffic has definite skills and talent as far as building models is concerned. I'm always impressed, awed, inspired, and humbled by his work.
That was my concern when I first heard about the show and it's premise--it sounded like Star Trek in a space-bound shopping mall, and the few episodes I watched pretty much confirmed that.
A number of Trek fans have suggested I give it another chance, and even admitted it took a while to "find it's legs", but at this point I really don't care enough about it to do that.
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