Female representation in hollywood

Krull said:

The whole Ghostbusters movie is such a pile of crap it isn't funny they are LITERALLY pushing it being all female like it matters...

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There are two sides to this coin. The gender issue matters and it doesn't matter. Picking one side isn't enough. Unless it's some very specific biological role that a character must fulfill, like a woman giving birth, than I don't see why any discrimination or low expectations should be in place. But I do think gender is important when it comes to treating them like people who have stories that should be told. Even a well meaning person with a "Gender doesn't matter" mind set can still go on to make projects that focus solely on one gender. But if you're going to make a stand and declare that gender doesn't matter (Or as you said "I just don't care"), does it really matter that they're pushing the fact that the Ghostbusters are all female? I just don't understand why people who don't care always seem to be the ones who speak the loudest about it.

Krull said:

In the end I just don't care,I go to watch a movie not get a social education,I watch to be entertained not get the correct programming that the high minded think I need,I don't give a flip about women,gays,blacks or whatever the flavor of the day offended minority is I want to watch a certain bunch of characters and the HELL with it being correct or not to someone's delicate sensibilities-you don't like it? then don't watch it cupcake.

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If the circumstances were more equal, I would agree. However, things are not equal. Viewers who do like to see some form of POC/LGBT representation, whether it's just interesting characters or heroes that we can look up towards don't have many alternatives available. Forget the lack of female heroes, do we even have one openly gay super hero at all in Hollywood?

Krull said:

Really some people need to learn to shut up,the world no matter what you believe doesn't revolve around you,you don't and shouldn't try to change it drastically just fix the rough patches,like another poster said if people like Jeyl had their way we'd be in 1984 and all dressed the same and all told what to think so we're "perfect" but in fact we'd just be the ultimate slaves no more freedom,no more creativity everything in a box and by the book.

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Cut! Cut! Let's go back a few scenes. As a huge bona fide Trekkie, the one thing I've always been critical about when it came to the quality of the Star Trek franchise was how much Gene Roddenberry himself did more harm than good when he was in charge. Why is that relevant to your description of me? Because his control of the franchise was so Orwellian that the writers who worked on the show described Gene's meddling as being trapped in "Gene's Box". Their good ideas were shelved, moments of drama were sugar coated and our 'human' heroes wouldn't shut up about how awesome they were. It got so bad that the lead character, Picard, told off a god-like entity "Q" that humanity may one day become more powerful than he is based on a re-interpretation of a line from Hamlet. Why would I ever follow Gene's lead?

The problem with a perfectly conformed society is that it cannot exist so long as there are differences. I don't want to live in a society like that. Even simple things like differences of opinion is one of the most quintessential attributes that makes us all unique. And even though I was born in 1984, I can assure you it's purely coincidence and I have no desire of making you conform to anything. I can't. It's impossible. While I don't fully agree with your views, I do try to understand where you're coming from. Yeah, I'm very picky when it comes to issues like this, but I can barely contain myself. That's why I've tried to post here rather than there, but that doesn't work all the time because the issue is still brought up by others. It's just complicated.

Jeyl said:

It got so bad that the lead character, Picard, told off a god-like entity "Q" that humanity may one day become more powerful than he is based on a re-interpretation of a line from Hamlet. Why would I ever follow Gene's lead?

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:facepalm

Gotta call you on this one as it was a brilliant scene. It summed up Trek perfectly. We're not there yet but we have hope for the future that one day we'll be better than this. He wasn't saying we were, he was saying that he thought we could become that some day.

Trek tries to highlight the best of humanity to show that we can be. I don't see a problem with that.

Michael Bergeron said:

:facepalm

Gotta call you on this one as it was a brilliant scene. It summed up Trek perfectly. We're not there yet but we have hope for the future that one day we'll be better than this. He wasn't saying we were, he was saying that he thought we could become that some day.

Trek tries to highlight the best of humanity to show that we can be. I don't see a problem with that.

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Jeyl's problem with it is humanity, he's upset that they said humans and didn't include Vulcans, Andorians, Tellarites, androids, and all of the other races that made up the Federation neglecting the fact that humanity was merely a shorthand for all sentient beings in the galaxy since we don't have a word yet to mean all sentient beings since, unlike sci-fi, we're the only sentient beings we know. Basically, not only is Jeyl a feminist he's also a specist even though we humans are the only sentient species we know of at the moment but that doesn't stop him from being offended for fictional aliens.

Michael Bergeron said:

Gotta call you on this one as it was a brilliant scene. It summed up Trek perfectly. We're not there yet but we have hope for the future that one day we'll be better than this.

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I'd like to know what Picard would have said to that dead girl's parents about how not bringing their daughter back to life was the absolute right thing to do. Of course, it's easy as a writer to avoid a potential moral conflict if you don't involve a little thing like the parents into the story. What possible business is it of theirs to decide what is right and wrong regarding their own daughter's life?

Michael Bergeron said:

Trek tries to highlight the best of humanity to show that we can be. I don't see a problem with that.

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How about the little problem that Gene Roddenberry preached "In the future, there will be no hunger and there will be no greed." had genuinely ripped off the people who worked for him so he could get credit for their work and a portion of their earnings?

A more direct problem with that argument is that one person's view of how humanity can be great is simply that. One person's view. And surprise, not everyone will agree with one person's idea of a perfect humanity. Why do you think every single writer who worked on TNG from the first season were all gone by the time the third season came about? Because their ideas of the future of humanity didn't tie in with Gene's.

Riceball said:

Basically, not only is Jeyl a feminist he's also a specist even though we humans are the only sentient species we know of at the moment but that doesn't stop him from being offended for fictional aliens.

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What can I say? I like including a diverse crowd.

Krull said:

In the end I just don't care,I go to watch a movie not get a social education,I watch to be entertained not get the correct programming that the high minded think I need,I don't give a flip about women,gays,blacks or whatever the flavor of the day offended minority is I want to watch a certain bunch of characters and the HELL with it being correct or not to someone's delicate sensibilities-you don't like it? then don't watch it cupcake.

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What about the Ghostbusters being all female turns the movie into "a social education?" Or, more generally, what do you mean when you say "social education?"

Further, why do you consider these to be mutually exclusive?

For example, there's one movie I really love called Smoke Signals. It's based on a book called The Lone Ranger and Tonto Fistfight in heaven by Sherman Alexie. The entire cast and crew of the movie is Native American. This was the first production to do so. Making a film telling Native American stories and hiring only Native Americans to do so is making a "social statement," in the context of the American film industry. It's making a statement that diverse kinds of storytelling can be done with film. It's making a statement that Native Americans have a distinct voice and narrative pacing.

But it's not a polemical film.

Really some people need to learn to shut up,the world no matter what you believe doesn't revolve around you,you don't and shouldn't try to change it drastically just fix the rough patches,like another poster said if people like Jeyl had their way we'd be in 1984 and all dressed the same and all told what to think so we're "perfect" but in fact we'd just be the ultimate slaves no more freedom,no more creativity everything in a box and by the book.

My two cents on the subject and that's all I'm gonna say.

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Eh....this is just hyperbole. And if you do believe this, you have a fatal misunderstanding of feminism and other social movements.

Ugh. I don't know why I ever unblock you. You're an idiot with a one track mind.

Like everyone has to completely live up to the ideals that they espouse. In your world nothing would ever improve because nobody would try. Hell, by your logic we shouldn't have the Declaration of Independence because Jefferson had slaves and didn't live up to "all men are created equal".

Idiotic. Anyhow, back on that block list. I'd advise others with the same issue to do the same and then he can just ramble to himself.

Sent from my SGH-I317M using Tapatalk 2

Threads like this make me sad. It also makes me sad to see a lot of fellow RPF'ers who don't seem to understand how important it sometimes can be when there's representation. But I also understand the need for good stories, regardless of representation. But it just hurts in a way, because...despite there being women in film, it's very rarely that they're portrayed as they are in Mad Max. Most of the time they're the romantic interest, a plot device, eyecandy or...just not there to add anything at all. It hurts when you watch films and you just sometimes feel like you're nothing more than a joke to Hollywood and the industry. It hurts when you're nothing more than a means to get sexual pleasure. How hard can it be to have women with a backstory, or at least make it seem like they have one? That they're human rather than accessories? And that their lives do not revolve around men? I don't understand that.

Example: Tauriel, the Token female elf in a mostly male production. It looked like she could become amazing, but turned out to be a lame love interest. When little children ask their parents 'where are all the girls?' then is it really no issue?

We're all human, so all I want is to be treated like one. By my fellow humans, whether they're my friends, my neighbours, fellow costumers or executives in Hollywood.

kialna said:

Threads like this make me sad. It also makes me sad to see a lot of fellow RPF'ers who don't seem to understand how important it sometimes can be when there's representation. But I also understand the need for good stories, regardless of representation. But it just hurts in a way, because...despite there being women in film, it's very rarely that they're portrayed as they are in Mad Max. Most of the time they're the romantic interest, a plot device, eyecandy or...just not there to add anything at all. It hurts when you watch films and you just sometimes feel like you're nothing more than a joke to Hollywood and the industry. It hurts when you're nothing more than a means to get sexual pleasure. How hard can it be to have women with a backstory, or at least make it seem like they have one? That they're human rather than accessories? And that their lives do not revolve around men? I don't understand that.

Example: Tauriel, the Token female elf in a mostly male production. It looked like she could become amazing, but turned out to be a lame love interest. When little children ask their parents 'where are all the girls?' then is it really no issue?

We're all human, so all I want is to be treated like one. By my fellow humans, whether they're my friends, my neighbours, fellow costumers or executives in Hollywood.

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But that's the point, there was a Mad Max recently made and they did have Tauriel added to The Hobbit, as to her how you perceive her role in the film, that's subjective. I thought she was a very strong, compelling character who kicked ass. I feel the same about Uhura in the new Trek, I thinks she's great, others complain about her. Clearly times are changing, the new STAR WARS movie is going to be another great example.

The one problem I have with all this is it feels less like you're trying to fix the problem and more like you want to bend me over and pound your ideas up my butt,you see the world as a giant square hole and you just HAVE to get that round peg in there because...well...feels,and unicorns,and the children and the children's children.

I was taught to go fix things and be quiet about it,you people seem to think you not only need to be vocal you need a friggin' marching band following along behind you.

I'm not gonna quote all of you but kialna if you really,really feel that way you should go check into a metal ward,the world is not nice and it sure ain't fair and while I concede we need to fix some things (like how they present women in films) we ain't never gonna be perfect and in my case I really don't give a flip or pay attention to how women get presented in film I just go to enjoy myself not sit there for the duration of the film and think about how it's wrong this way,or wrong that way.

And really all of you Jeyl,jlee562,kialna do you know how sad you people are? is that ALL you do is think about how something is bad,wrong or otherwise screwed up and how you must be a champion and fix it? do you sit around and pick apart how things are unjust and must be fixed? is that your whole damn life? because you sound miserable to me and it's honestly amazing you haven't gone suicide yet- if I was that way I'd have found a cliff and hopped off long ago.

Now I do think about how somethings need change and when they do I say "good" but I don't obsess over it,you people seem to do just that obsess over it as that's a majority of what you talk about,really you should get help.

And that's all I have to say,anyone from here out who starts on this bend gets put on block,you people are nuts and that's exactly why the world is so screwed up because you just make somethings worse and not better,if you truly wonder why women aren't treated right in film go look in a mirror.

Sorry what? I make one post and I have to check out a mental ward? And it's all I think about? Wow. Just WOW. I have never in my entire time on the RPF been so insulted. I know that the world isn't a nice place. I've been through quite the sh-t, thank you. I don't need you to tell me what to do, just because you don't give a ****. Hey, I too enjoy films and when watching I can put sh-t aside and take it as the story. That doesn't mean I will deny the problem.

And you know what, you are the one who can enjoy the block because if I just want to have my gender and thus myself to be treated as a human being and I get told I'm nuts, then really, you are the one who should check out a mental ward. My goodness. Have some respect!

@Bryancd
Well yes. Uhura is definitely a good character. I enjoy her very much. Tauriel was off to a good start but it felt lame after the love triangle thing. But it shouldn't be about just one character in each movie really. Not that I'm not glad, but when one character represents your entire gender in a movie full of men... well... Even so, yes, we're moving forward.

kialna said:

@Bryancd
Well yes. Uhura is definitely a good character. I enjoy her very much. Tauriel was off to a good start but it felt lame after the love triangle thing. But it shouldn't be about just one character in each movie really. Not that I'm not glad, but when one character represents your entire gender in a movie full of men... well... Even so, yes, we're moving forward.

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But the source material had no women in it. So PJ and crew saw fit to add one and gave her a lot to do. So you see glass half empty because she was the only one and I see glass half full as the story was altered to be more inclusive. We should be saying well done and not saying "Not enough!".

And it's worth noting that Jeyl at every opportunity trots out the new Uhura as an example of a terrible female character despite the fact that one, that's a matter of personal opinion, and two, he's wrong.

kialna said:

Sorry what? I make one post and I have to check out a mental ward? And it's all I think about? Wow. Just WOW. I have never in my entire time on the RPF been so insulted. I know that the world isn't a nice place. I've been through quite the sh-t, thank you. I don't need you to tell me what to do, just because you don't give a ****. Hey, I too enjoy films and when watching I can put sh-t aside and take it as the story. That doesn't mean I will deny the problem.

And you know what, you are the one who can enjoy the block because if I just want to have my gender and thus myself to be treated as a human being and I get told I'm nuts, then really, you are the one who should check out a mental ward. My goodness. Have some respect!

@Bryancd
Well yes. Uhura is definitely a good character. I enjoy her very much. Tauriel was off to a good start but it felt lame after the love triangle thing. But it shouldn't be about just one character in each movie really. Not that I'm not glad, but when one character represents your entire gender in a movie full of men... well... Even so, yes, we're moving forward.

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Look I meant to offend you because,how's that go?,"someone gets the most upset when they get told the truth" you are obsessing over this just like the others.

Know how I am with a movie,or music,or games,or anything that's meant to entertain me? I just have fun with it,I don't mind hanging with a bunch of geeks like here on the RPF and picking apart how a ship is or isn't right,or how Vader should have done this or that-that's fun and amusing.

But I don't go in and start picking apart how wrong a movie is because it doesn't do some big social thing,or how some minority or whatever isn't represented correctly-if I did stuff would stop being entertainment and start being a drag.

It's fantasy and while it changes with time I don't bother with that-go look at Star Trek say in the 60's and now BIG difference but know what? I don't care,the most I notice is how ganky the effects were back then (Kirk and that lizard man? wow what a mess!) not how drab and put down Uhura was and how she should have been the big cheese or something.

That's all,this is fantasy and it's meant to be fun and that's what the RPF is to me-fun.

You guys are dragging it down and I find that annoying and stupid,go somewhere else please,or shut up,or face ignore and maybe go away when nobody talks to you.

In Tauriels case I'd rather have her not or at least no love triangle. However, that was the original intention so it's one of those things I let go of anyway. It was the producers who wanted it a love triangle. I won't ever blame PJ for it. The levels higher up however... But in all honesty, I'm not seeing the glass half-empty. I quite enjoyed the Hobbit 1 & 2 and was able to watch the movies without much trouble really. Sometimes people think you can't enjoy something while also acknowledging the faults. I used to think like that, until I became aware that I did have some critisism about certain music, artists or actors, but still loved their work. I couldn't take part 3, but had to do with the endless battle scenes and painful 3D rather than *this* issue.

But if one must know: I won't stop watching a series or a film, just because there's a lack of representation. If the story and/or film grips me, I'll watch it regardless. It's just a plus (and those come more often luckily) if your gender/race/sexuality finally gets shown without it being a gimmick. I hope you understand what I'm saying here? if not, I'll make an anology.
I'm a big fan of trains. In case I'm watching a film, par example, mission impossible, and I see the TGV scene happen, I'm super happy and gleeful about that scene being existent. Especially because it's not a movie about trains, or located around a track. Doesn't mean I won't see the mistakes, but for that moment, I'm happy. not sure if it makes any sense, but that's about something I like. Something small can make you happy. Now imagine being a woman, grow up being told you're not important, you're never going to have a voice, and men are better than women, and you see something in a film, however tiny, where a woman is not one of the standard roles, but more like you are (which is why Mad Max is indeed amazing. Women are people, who knew!? :lol ) then imagine the joy. Men don't have that joy, nor do they understand it, because they've always been in movies.

I'm not asking you, or anyone on here, to change things. That's something the industry is already working at and I'm proud of that, especially as I'll be in the industry myself. I'm just asking if some of you may be able to at least understand it a little from a women's point of view.

And for the record; I hate Social justice warriors as much as you guys probably do. But feminism is nothing else but the belief that men and women should be equal. "But why isn't it called equalism then?" because both men and women are being shamed for their feminine sides and traits. If a woman wears male clothes, she's cool, funky, tomboy, one of the guys. If a man wears women's clothes, he's gay, a sissy, a *** or anything like that. Weird, those double standards?

Oh boy this post got a lot longer than I wanted it to be :lol

Krull, if you don't want to part of the discussion and you don't care, then don't post in this thread.

This thread was created specifically because those of us who DO want to discuss issues were constantly being told that it was "off topic" or "not relevant."

jlee562 said:

Krull, if you don't want to part of the discussion and you don't care, then don't post in this thread.

This thread was created specifically because those of us who DO want to discuss issues were constantly being told that it was "off topic" or "not relevant."

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Just posting my mind on the subject,but yea if you want to have a thread for this stuff I don't mind-just fair is fair and if you have your thread for your pet subjects then keep it here,NOWHERE else okay? it IS off topic and it IS a nuisance.

Krull said:

Just posting my mind on the subject,but yea if you want to have a thread for this stuff I don't mind-just fair is fair and if you have your thread for your pet subjects then keep it here,NOWHERE else okay? it IS off topic and it IS a nuisance.

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Are you an RPF moderator?

Then don't tell me what to post.

This is the thread to discuss female representation in Hollywood. Since you've made it clear that you have no desire to do so, please stop trying to shut down the discussion for everybody else.

Females aren't represented in films? Ok now I'm confused...:confused

Yeah, the situation is truly dire....

http://makingstarwars.net/2015/09/three-women-up-for-roles-in-star-wars-episode-viii/

Bryancd said:

And it's worth noting that Jeyl at every opportunity trots out the new Uhura as an example of a terrible female character despite the fact that one, that's a matter of personal opinion, and two, he's wrong.

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Well, she could have been handled better. I mean, if you want us to take her knowledge and skill in linguistics seriously, have it actually accomplish something. You speak Romulan? Well the Romulans speak english. You want to diffuse a conflict with the Klingons by speaking to them in their language? Well that's not going to work because we want to sell your character as the 'action girl with a gun' rather than as a diplomat.



Oh, you remember this bit from Damon Lindelof regarding that one moment that gave Uhura THE BIGGEST SPOTLIGHT EVER?


Didn't feel intimate, cool or earned... Picture if you will the severely damaged Enterprise limping in Earth's orbit only to have a whole armada of Klingon ships slowly approaching. In one big wide shot, you have Earth, the Klingon armada and the crippled Enterprise in the middle. Unlike their last encounter with the Klingons, shooting them isn't going to work. Spock isn't onboard, Kirk is dead and what remains of the crew are pretty much scrambling to keep the ship together. And who's going to step up and do something about this potentially catastrophic situation? Uhura. Just the dynamics between what was at stake during her first attempt at diplomacy vs what's at stake now could have been the most intense scenes in the movie. She failed to talk down a Klingon patrol, but she HAS to succeed at talking down the entire Klingon armada. And it worked. Despite the odds and clear intent of the Klingons, she manages to succeed in dealing with the Klingons without resorting to violence.

But instead of doing something like that, they resorted to the 'action girl with a gun' schtick again. It's like they have the right ideas on what to do with Uhura, but they keep changing into something more 'action' oriented that is no where near as satisfying than doing something unexpected like facing down a whole armada.

As I said, totally subjective...but I appreciate the effort.