what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader quit

Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

I'm not sure... assuming that Sullust as a staging ground was relatively close to Endor, it would be strategically moronic of the Rebel Alliance leaders to amass a large noticeable fleet that close to their target for a sneak attack....
Why must one assume that?

Anyway, here's the empirical evidence:
1. a rebel fleet is massing near Sullust.
2. a rebel fleet is massing to attack the Death Star, in a location that might or might not be near Sullust.

No mention of a diversionary fleet is ever made. It's extrapolation to assume there was one. Occam.
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

Here's another thing I just noticed. At :43 just as Ackbar is saying "All craft, prepare to jump into hyperspace!" Watch the squid guy that is standing up to the left. He turns around and starts to push nonexistent buttons on an empty wall! He quickly catches himself, looks to the right, see the computer screen and has an "Ah ha! there's the monitor" moment! Its really kinda funny, obviously the guy could not see out of the mask!
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

Here's another thing I just noticed. At :43 just as Ackbar is saying "All craft, prepare to jump into hyperspace!" Watch the squid guy that is standing up to the left. He turns around and starts to push nonexistent buttons on an empty wall! He quickly catches himself, looks to the right, see the computer screen and has an "Ah ha! there's the monitor" moment! Its really kinda funny, obviously the guy could not see out of the mask!

.
Clearly that guy was using a holographic readout meant for the SE OTs, Lucas' genius knows no bounds... :lol
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

I like how Ackbar says to prepare to jump "on my mark". And then Lando says "all right, stand by" and pulls the lever. Wait, he didn't give the mark!
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

Capture 2.PNGHere's another screw up! We can assess how big the medical frigate is by watching the end of TESB seeing Luke and Leia in the window. We also have a pretty good idea of how big one of those Tantive IV ships is, pretty much around the same size? Or at least close, right? Yet look at this shot of two of them side by side. This makes the Medical frigate frikkin' huge compared to one of those corellian corvettes. The "Luke/Liea window" would be almost as tall as the Tantive in this pic.
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

View attachment 517930Here's another screw up! We can assess how big the medical frigate is by watching the end of TESB seeing Luke and Leia in the window. We also have a pretty good idea of how big one of those Tantive IV ships is, pretty much around the same size? Or at least close, right? Yet look at this shot of two of them side by side. This makes the Medical frigate frikkin' huge compared to one of those corellian corvettes. The "Luke/Liea window" would be almost as tall as the Tantive in this pic.

What are you using for scale in this pic, no 2 ships in the pic are on the same plane so there's no way to determine scale. The X-Wing is probably the closest to the camera, followed by the Star Destroyer with the Nebulon B close by but off to the side, and the transport way in the back.

- - - Updated - - -

Speaking of the medical frigate, I just noticed something weird! Here is a Youtube link to the ROTJ space battle only.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPZigWFyK2o

This is a 1080 version. Now, toggle to exactly 2:12-2:14. Look directly at the Falcon and then right below it. Off in the distance it looks like possibly two medical frigates, it is hard to make them out, you can really only see small shapes. They almost look like Klingon battle cruisers! They do have the shape of the medical frigate but if you watch the 2 second clip--THEY ARE MOVING BACKWARDS!! I've toggled these 2 seconds over and over and its either Klingons or the medical frigates moving in the wrong direction!

See what you think.
View attachment 517919
Works best on full screen.

While there does appear to be 2 Nebulon Bs in that scene that doesn't necessarily mean that both or either of them are the medical frigate, nothing on screen or off ever indicated that the only role of the Nebulon B was that of a medical frigate.
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

First; Look at the lower left side of the screen. There is a Tantive type ship directly in front of the medical frigate. Look how small it is in relation to the medical frigate behind it. Scale is way off I think.

Second: I'm not really debating whether or not they are Nebulon B ships, I'm referring to their direction. You have to watch the footage to see it. The still picture was just to show where they were in the frame. If they are indeed Nebulon B ships, they are travelling backwards.
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

Well a couple of factors are involved here maybe...

In order for the Imperials to believe that the Rebels were indeed massing near Sullest, they would have to build up a sizable fleet there in order to maintain that charade.

Also, the Rebels weren't expecting sizable resistance in their attack on the DS2. Firstly the location was supposed to be secret; second, it's primary defense was supposedly its shield with most likely a picket defense fleet of ships since the bulk of the Imperial Fleet was supposedly scattered across the universe trying to hunt down the Rebels; and lastly, the DS2 wasn't supposed to operational.

It is conceivable that the bulk of the Rebel fleet was indeed at Sullest and what was sent in to attack the DS2 was a strike force not expecting much resistance...

Though this does also beg the question more of why were there transport ships and medical frigates in the DS2 attack when you would assume that those were the exact types of "filler" ships that you would want to amass at Sullest...


That's kind of what I'm thinking. That they thought they had surprise so they only sent a smaller force with the larger fleet at Sullust as a distraction. I think the Rebels could have probably put a LOT more fighters into this as well seeing how the Death Star supposedly had a huge contingent of TIEs!

View attachment 517930Here's another screw up! We can assess how big the medical frigate is by watching the end of TESB seeing Luke and Leia in the window. We also have a pretty good idea of how big one of those Tantive IV ships is, pretty much around the same size? Or at least close, right? Yet look at this shot of two of them side by side. This makes the Medical frigate frikkin' huge compared to one of those corellian corvettes. The "Luke/Liea window" would be almost as tall as the Tantive in this pic.

That's the shot I was talking about earlier with the frigate exchanging broadsides with a Star Destroyer. That to me says that's not THE medical frigate Wedge was talking about. It also seems to show it has better weapons or shields than we think. Otherwise it would be crazy to do that with a Star Destroyer.
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

I'm not sure... assuming that Sullust as a staging ground was relatively close to Endor, it would be strategically moronic of the Rebel Alliance leaders to amass a large noticeable fleet that close to their target for a sneak attack...

Where are you getting that Sullust is near Endor? I think Imperial intelligence has more resources than Alliance Intel, and when the Rebellion stopped running and hiding and gathered all in one place they were probably found almost instantly. Vader was most likely worried they might be prepping to attack Imperial Center or one of the other major worlds. I don't think the Emperor had clued him in that the Death Star's location had been leaked.

--Jonah
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

Where are you getting that Sullust is near Endor? I think Imperial intelligence has more resources than Alliance Intel, and when the Rebellion stopped running and hiding and gathered all in one place they were probably found almost instantly. Vader was most likely worried they might be prepping to attack Imperial Center or one of the other major worlds. I don't think the Emperor had clued him in that the Death Star's location had been leaked.

--Jonah

It's an assumption since you wouldn't necessarily want to have your troops travel a long period of time to go into battle especially for what's supposed to be a sneak attack; the longer it takes your battle group to get to the battle zone, the greater the chance that your enemy will find out about the attack and prepare for it or call in for additional support. You'd also be expending a greater amount of fuel and your troops may not be as battle ready after a long trip.

So as the commander of the Rebel fleet, you'd want to launch your attack from the closest strategic point possible to try to gain the maximum advantage over what ships are there protecting the Death Star; hence the assumption that if the fleet that was amassing at Sullust was indeed the fleet that attached the DS2, Sullust is tactically close to Endor.

And if this is the case, as you point out, with the Empire's resources, their intel would immediately notice a large Rebel fleet massing, it would be colossally stupid of the Alliance leadership to essentially wave a big white flag saying "here we are" that close to their intended target unless there were other high-value targets other than the DS2 within striking distance. But even if there were other potential targets, you would assume that the Imperials would consider the DS2 a top priority and divert assets to protect it just in case.

So it would make sense that Sullust was a diversionary tactic and the fleet that attacked the DS2 was not the fleet at Sullust.

Now of course this is all conjecture and supposition because there's no way we know how hyperspace works in the SW universe and Sullust could be the other side of the galaxy from Endor and ships can travel that type of distance instantaneously. But we do know that there is still some sort of a time component involved in hyperspace travel since it seems that it took awhile for the Falcon to reach Alderaan from Tatooine.
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

Except the last thing I'd want to do, if I didn't want the enemy to realize I knew where their superweapon was being built, was amass my fleet just round the corner. Look at the preparations for Operation: Overlord. They had the Germans convinced the attack would come at Calais, while they were actually gearing up to attack from a completely different source, and land at the place they least expected. I'd mass the fleet somewhere optimal for a strike on Corellia or Fondor or Commenor or Imperial Center itself, to not let on I knew where the Death Star was being built.

Plus, as you said, we still have no idea how long hyperspace travel takes or how much energy it consumes. The Falcon, flying from Tatooine in the Outer Rim to Alderaan in the Core, seems to have made the trip in a couple hours. Make of that what you will. But all of the discussion, from Leia and Vader alike, is of one fleet assembling. It makes sense to me to presume the fleet Leia's urging Luke to join them in returning to is the one Vader says is massing at Sullust is the one that we see assault the Death Star.

--Jonah
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

Except the last thing I'd want to do, if I didn't want the enemy to realize I knew where their superweapon was being built, was amass my fleet just round the corner. Look at the preparations for Operation: Overlord. They had the Germans convinced the attack would come at Calais, while they were actually gearing up to attack from a completely different source, and land at the place they least expected. I'd mass the fleet somewhere optimal for a strike on Corellia or Fondor or Commenor or Imperial Center itself, to not let on I knew where the Death Star was being built.

That's my point, hyperspace implications aside, it would make more sense that Sullust was far away from Endor and a diversionary tactic rather than it was a nearby system and the Rebels had military idiots running the show...
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

Wait, you're saying they'd stage close because it would be a good idea, but also that it would be a bad idea so therefore Sullust is far and thus they really didn't. ?????
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

I think they would stage far, knowing ImpIntel would catch wind of it, and draw the wrong conclusions, based on whatever systems are likely targets from Sullust. A couple hours in transit, max, isn't that bad.

--Jonah
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

Because the Rebels thought the Deathstar was not operational, I always thought the Rebel Trasport ships were empty and meant to go between the Rebel ships and the Star Destroyers as canon fodder.
 
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Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

Wait, you're saying they'd stage close because it would be a good idea, but also that it would be a bad idea so therefore Sullust is far and thus they really didn't. ?????

No... what I'm saying is that there are two possibilities based on all of the conjecture and supposition in this thread:

The first is that there was only one Rebel fleet - the one that was mentioned massing at Sullust and attacked the DS2. If this is the case, then Sullust would have to be relatively close to Endor (again, hyperspace implications aside) in order to make it a tactically sound staging area - meaning that the Rebel Alliance military leaders were really dumb; because as a few other people have noted, Imperial military intelligence would immediately notice a build up of Rebel ships, which they did.

Or...

Two; there were in fact two Rebel fleets, one that was massing on the other side of the galaxy at Sullust as far away from Endor as possible that was used as a diversionary tactic, and a second smaller fleet that was the one that actually attacked the DS2.
 
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Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

I always interpreted it as there were two fleets, otherwise the Rebels would have expected a fleet of Star Destroyers waiting for them. What that doesn't explain is why they chose the attacking fleet to have the Medical Frigate and transports in it. You would think you'd make this smaller "crack attack force" the more powerful one in terms of fighters and battle cruisers.

In reality they just threw any model they had into the fight for cinematic excitement, but an in universe explanation is that they could have been converted ships to look harmless but actually have a good armament.

As for Vader, it was clear that they wanted Luke to win so I figure he threw the fight. Then when Luke wouldn't turn to the dark side and Palps tarted frying him he had is turn of heart and saved him.
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

No... what I'm saying is that there are two possibilities based on all of the conjecture and supposition in this thread:

The first is that there was only one Rebel fleet - the one that was mentioned massing at Sullust. If this is the case, then Sullust would have to be relatively close to Endor (again, hyperspace implications aside) in order to make it a tactically sound staging area - meaning that the Rebel Alliance military leaders were really dumb; because as a few other people have noted, Imperial military intelligence would immediately notice a build up of Rebel ships, which they did.

Or...

Two; there were in fact two Rebel fleets, one that was massing on the other side of the galaxy at Sullust as far away from Endor as possible that was used as a diversionary tactic, and a second smaller fleet that was the one that actually attacked the DS2.

You're missing the third possibility, that I find most likely: One fleet ("The Alliance should be assembled by now."), relatively far from Endor ("What of reports of the Rebel fleet massing near Sullust?" "They are of no concern to us."), because everything we've seen in the movies indicates hyperspace travel halfway across the galaxy on anything faster than an old barge is maybe a day at most. More often far less (Tatooine to Alderaan -- "You can forget your worries about those Imperial slugs. Told you I'd outrun 'em. [two minutes later] We're coming up on Alderaan." Add in however long a Dejarik chss game takes...).

--Jonah
 
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Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

You're missing the third possibility, that I find most likely: One fleet ("The Alliance should be assembled by now."), relatively far from Endor ("What of reports of the Rebel fleet massing near Sullust?" "They are of no concern to us."), because everything we've seen in the movies indicates hyperspace travel halfway across the galaxy on anything faster than an old barge is maybe a day at most. More often far less (Tatooine to Alderaan -- "You can forget your worries about those Imperial slugs. Told you I'd outrun 'em. [two minutes later] We're coming up on Alderaan." Add in however long a Dejarik chss game takes...).

--Jonah


I did say "hyperspace implications aside"... because we don't really know how hyperspace operates in the SW universe... it could be more or less instantaneous as you mention, or there could still be a time factor involved. And I wouldn't necessarily use pacing in a movie or tv as 'gospel' in terms of how long it takes to get from point A to B... it could have been a few hours or even days as opposed to "two minutes"... but it wouldn't make for a very entertaining movie if you made the audience wait for four hours while our heroes traveled... well... unless you're Peter Jackson... then you make two entire movies all about our heroes traveling from point A to B ;-).

Case in point... it never take more than 10 minutes for Jack Bauer to travel across the city of Los Angeles in any episode of "24" :)
 
Re: what's the point of multiple rebel transports in the battle of Endor? Did vader q

In reality they just threw any model they had into the fight for cinematic excitement, but an in universe explanation is that they could have been converted ships to look harmless but actually have a good armament.

That would make the most sense when you think about it, fighters are one thing but capital ships are another thing entirely and much, much harder to acquire and/or build in secret. In the old West End RPG it was explained that the Mon Cal cruisers were not originally built as dedicated warships but were in fact converted cruise liners. The dialogue in RotJ does support this when Ackbar tells Lando that it would be suicide for them to close in on the Star Destroyers which indicates that they aren't as formidable as Star Destroyers which supports the idea of them being converted cruise liners. Of course, in the real world there's no way that you could convert a cruise liner into a warship, they're just way too large and top heavy to make a good warship, but I suppose that the good thing is that all of those decks could make for some deep magazines that would allow them to carry lots, and lots of missiles, assuming that you could make a self-reloading vertical missile launcher.
 
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