He's got a cameo as a totally different character. That's a HUGE difference from reprising Venkman which he didn't want to do. Give the guy a break.
GHOSTBUSTERS Pre-Release - film discussion only, no social commentary please!
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KrangPrime
Master Member
I'm not disagreeing with you....
out of all of them, he's earned the most bonus points to be given a break. followed by dan, of course. but you have to admit, it IS kind of a double edged sword, no?
in order to 'save' the franchise by giving a damn, he caused all this to happen in the first place. so on one hand you want to punch the guy...on the other hand, you totally understand where he's coming from. he's in a position to play the hollywood game if he wants, or totally circumvent it..and he'll be fine no matter who he ticks off..
He did save the franchise from itself as long as he was able. Every concept I heard for a GB3 was awful and he was very right to not to want to cheapen the film franchise any further (although I for one thought GB2 was okay you know it would have gotten worse).
Now admittedly everything I've heard about this new one blows chunks. However his willingness to pass the torch by way of a cameo is the most respectful thing he can do. Same with Dan.
I have absolutely no doubt that he likes the people involved and they're all very nice. I don't get a two faced Hollywood vibe from any of these women.
I still think the movie will suck. I wouldn't be surprised if Bill does as well. However in his position I'd probably do the same thing. Be nice about it and wish them luck. He's gotten what he wanted, no sequel with the original characters. Ghostbusters is someone elses problem now.
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Solo4114
Master Member
Pretty much this.
Also, you can't blame Murray for the decision to reboot. Part of it is due to his reluctance, but a lot of it is also due to Ivan and Dan having crap ideas that nobody wanted, and an ultimate lack of creative vision at the studio, plus the general belief that "Reboots = money."
Let's also bear in mind that it is unlikely Murray wanted to safeguard the property itself. Rather, he just...didn't want to do another lameass sequel to a movie where he already felt like, you know, they did a lameass sequel. And he was never that enthusiastic about the original project, either. I've heard he did it so that Columbia would let him do his Hunter S. Thompson biopic.
In the end, Murray is entirely entitled to choose not to do a role that he doesn't find interesting. He doesn't "owe" the fans continued entries in the film series. And, to be honest, if his performance in the GB video game is any indication, I'm kinda glad he didn't agree to do a sequel. It's pretty clear that he just...isn't that interested in the franchise, and as I've said time and again whenever people would talk about yet another rehashed notion of "Take today's hottest comedic actors and stick them in GB suits to make a movie," I'd rather have no further movies than just some crappy, throwaway entry.
Axlotl
Master Member
"Where the Buffalo Roam"? That was released in 1980.
I think you mean "Razor's Edge".
Solo4114
Master Member
Oh, you're right. I mixed the two up. Whoops!
KrangPrime
Master Member
yeah, it was Razors Edge. that's just the thing though..
if he was so un in to it in the beginning, why did he ask for rights and approval status? that part of it doesn't make sense to me.
other than the fact that he might have wanted to be on even terms with the other high end players.
the three guys, harold, ivan and dan did all the heavy lifting work to sort it out and turn it into what it was, after dans terrible script treatment. All Bill really did was show up and work because the original choice, belushi, died. he was a second pick.
and if you get so bored with it later... either pitch in ideas to make it more suitable to you, or sell your rights so they can move forward. when I look at it that way, it just seems like a sabotage attempt. especially after 20 years of being asked about a franchise he never gave a second thought to after the 2nd movie.
Solo4114
Master Member
Come on. Let's be realistic here. If there had been an in-continuity sequel and Murray hadn't appeared in it, people would be plenty pissed. I think the simple fact is that Murray did not want to play Venkman again. Like, almost at all. Maybe in a 5 minute cameo, but that's, like, one day of work and he goes back to wandering the country, eating people's french fries. And even that was, apparently, pushing it if the script was crap, which, apparently, all of the previous ones were.
We can bandy around what-if scenarios, and propose our own ideas about what could've been a cool movie, but in the end, it comes down to having a real script, and I think audiences were never going to be happy with a GB3. Like, at all.
In fact, I'll go as far as to say this: I think a reboot, ultimately, was Sony's only move left, other than abandoning the franchise altogether. While I find the notion of a reboot to be irritating, and while I would have preferred a good in-continuity sequel from a director who was genuinely enthusiastic from the get-go, I don't think the odds were ever good that any GB3 was gonna be worth a crap. Seriously. I think it would've been a cash-in.
You know what? I've kind of reached the point where I just...don't care that much anymore. Seriously, **** it. Who cares? The reboot thing is lame. The "AND it's women" aspect to the pre-release hype is lame. But in truth....it was always going to be lame. There was never going to be a good GB3.
I've been saying for years that I didn't want a GB3. This movie, and Murray's own reluctance to be involved in a true sequel, are a big part of the reason why. Put simply, I have never really trusted that anyone was going to make a GB3 that would be any good. The odds of it being good vs. those of it being a cynical cash-in have always been off the charts bad.
I think you'd stand a better chance of getting a good sequel to the GB video game than you would of getting a good film. And I'd rather have nothing than a crappy sequel. So, now we're kinda splitting the baby. We get no sequel...but we get a reboot....and I'm just reaching the point where I find it hard to give a damn.
KrangPrime
Master Member
re murray in it. i'lll agree to that. but personally, I think it could also have survived without him. so long as you had a leading man that could either bring something new to it.....or match what he brought to the franchise. example....(but probably not the best comparison) Guttenburg leaving Police Academy and getting replaced by Matt McCoy. same type of character, instantly likable, everyone else stays the same in the core group.. growing up, murray wasn't my favorite character anyway. I always thought Ray was the best choice ;o). and in the cartoon, it kind of leaned toward winston, with egon being a close second.
and on giving a damn..I agree. I reached that point a few months ago when I saw the uniform images released and realized this thing was going to happen no matter how many people complained. maybe it's just the ocd in me that keeps me going ;o).
Well with all this bickering about whether or not Murray wanted to to be in the movie sequels or not, I still think it's a mistake for Hollywood to REBOOT an established canon like this. And they really don't have to... that's the beauty of it! This movie can be taken in so many different ways other then a reboot it's not silly. For them to just say to hell with it and just remake the whole thing from scratch is like saying... hey let's remake Back to the Future or Terminator... movies like this set new standards and shaped an entire generation of movie goers. I can still remember me and my friends at school spouting one liners from the movie all the time "He Slimed Me!" or "Shhhhh... you smell something?" Classic lines that now are going to be left behind and tromped upon like dirt under the rug. I find it disrespectful even to consider a remake/reboot/rehash of something that we the fans have held dear to us for 30 years. I feel like they don't care anymore what they throw up there on the screen and it saddens me. There are some movies you just can't remake and think they will ever hold up to the originals. Look at the Total Recall remake... I'm sorry, that was nothing but a mess from beginning to end... what gets me is that they thought it was so phenomenal that they turned it into a TV series too... and then what happened? Cancelled after one season... why? Because it wasn't actually Total Recall... it was more based on Blade Runner. Perhaps that's the only reason why they made the movie in the first place was to set up the TV series. But it didn't do well in the box office when it came out, so why did they invest in the TV Show to go along with it? Because they were greedy, stupid, and clueless about what the public want. Its no wonder all the theaters are filled with Superhero movies... they sell. But this... I know its a mistake... I may see it out of curiosity, but that's about it. I'm sure I'll be disappointed if they turn it into a remake.
My big problem with Billy is he's being an arse about it-to me if he came out and flat out said "I don't want another Ghostbusters because it'll suck" I'd be able to take it better,hell even if he said Dan and Ivan's ideas blew poop I'd be happier because at least he's just saying what he feels is true.
Then take the idea that he resisted for years and now? oh he's gonna do a cameo and that's nuthin' um,no it is something if he was so against it why go close to anything to do with it? like above just say "no" and walk off that would actually earn my respect to be honest.
Then take the idea that he resisted for years and now? oh he's gonna do a cameo and that's nuthin' um,no it is something if he was so against it why go close to anything to do with it? like above just say "no" and walk off that would actually earn my respect to be honest.
I think the GB fanbase is in some denial about how "bad" the original GB idea was. It would have sounded stupid on paper in 1982 just like the GB3 ideas all do. The genius came out in the execution.
On the other hand I agree there was never a good third movie coming. Bill Murray may have frustrated us with his foot-dragging but his feelings about the bottom line for GB3 were probably valid.
On the other hand I agree there was never a good third movie coming. Bill Murray may have frustrated us with his foot-dragging but his feelings about the bottom line for GB3 were probably valid.
KrangPrime
Master Member
how is it any worse than a guy who goes crazy, wears spandex as a uniform, and fights crime, all because his mommy and daddy where killed? or being bitten by a radio active spider given super powers? unless you mean dan's ORIGINAL, pre Ivan treatment where it was set in the future and had interdimensional portals...than yeah. THAT idea would have been harder to take. at least in 1984. after years of super hero movies, we've kind of been dulled by the fantastical.
Didn't Bill and Dan get into a really bad agruement and Dan basically kicked him out of his party at some point because Bill was being an arse? I think that's what I read somewhere... and Bill and Dan didn't talk to each other for years after that.
KrangPrime
Master Member
BTW, noticed a few weeks ago. considering how these two threads went, I think it's a sign ;o)
I feel weird defending the craziness of comic book movies. But it is a little bit easier than GB. Any premise that has consistently remained popular for decades . . . that says something for it. And the comic-type heroes tend to have ridiculous 1st-reel setups to create the super powers & villian. The latter part of the movie usually tries to work within those guidelines. "Tell your lies early" is an old saying about writing fiction.
With GB you've got the ghost fighters using intentionally ridiculous gear that shoots giant proton streams like Silly String. They drive a 1959 tailfinned ambulance with gear bolted onto it. They have a final showdown with a scary flat-topped 1980s music video chick. They are eventually attacked by a giant Pillsbury Doughboy.
I had a homemade GB outfit as a kid and watched TRGB cartoon religiously just like many of my generation. I still do love the original. But I'm calling a spade a spade - the original movie's premise sounds like a trainwreck on paper. We would be tearing down right now if we were hearing it for the first time in the form of GB3 or Feig's movie.
KrangPrime
Master Member
yeah, but it's all explained away. you see egon working on said equipment during dinner, so it didn't magically just appear. the ambulance was the only thing they could probably afford on a base budget, and then built it up with the hopes of earning money to pay for it later. the stay puft was just an exercise in randomness. explained away by ray as the least scary thing he could think of.
as they said in the dvd commentary, it's the domino effect ofreality. you hook them in with a ghost off the bat...show them building up....their first case, then as seasoned, tired veterans..and, if everything else comes together (plot, writing, acting, casting)...you'll be able to accept anything by the movies end.
to me, it's no different than being able to accept something that looks like asgard could possibly exist in reality. or that a human on earth could be smart enough to keep up with centuries old asgardian science...
Solo4114
Master Member
Neil,
You're missing the point.
The point is "It looks stupid on paper." We all know it gets better in real life. That's because a stupid idea may end up excelling in its presentation.
To be fair, I don't think that any of Feig's ideas -- in and of themselves -- are particularly stupid except, perhaps, the dance number. But that's more because, in my mind, "Dance number" means, like, a 1950s musical dance number where everyone is suddenly singing and dancing for no reason. In context, it might work.
The real issue with what I've heard about Feig's stuff hasn't been the core ideas themselves, but rather the execution. The core ideas are just as batspit crazy as the original, the sequel, or any number of other films. But the execution -- the specific jokes that are sneaking out -- it all sounds very self-referential which, to me, is the sign of a film that is NOT confident about standing on its own two feet. But that gets back to the inherent dilemma with reboots.
Anyway, again, the point is "It all looks crazy on paper. Sometimes that crazy works out, sometimes it doesn't."
KrangPrime
Master Member
I probably should have stopped two posts back, but I'll dip into the deep end one more time ;o)
does anything not really sound stupid when you first read it? Jim Hensons pitch for Fraggle Rock. Little furry animals living in a cave, even smaller animals building stuff they eat to survive. Knight Rider.....shot cop gets face ripped off by bullet, reworked into image of hosts son, gains super car and fights crime.
Gilligans Island...people survive shipwreck....build homes with no seen tools....survive with no known animals or eco system..tons of guest stars randomly appear and leave without taking them. Barney the Dinosaur. purple goofy talking dinosaur lives in modern times to teach kids manners through song and dance.
practically every idea proposed through modern entertainment could be thought of as stupid. not just ghostbusters.
i'd argue over time that once success hits with stupid ideas, things stop being thought of as such and start being seen as 'yeah, this could work'..
that's all I was trying to get across...it was kind of a weird point to make. the only reason we are tearing feigbusters to shreds now, is because we have an acceptable standard of 'stupid' for the ghostbusters franchise. and when something veers away from that, and makes it even worse, that's a cause to rip it apart ;o)...
what are we talking about again? ;o) what's left of my head is spinning ;o)
does anything not really sound stupid when you first read it? Jim Hensons pitch for Fraggle Rock. Little furry animals living in a cave, even smaller animals building stuff they eat to survive. Knight Rider.....shot cop gets face ripped off by bullet, reworked into image of hosts son, gains super car and fights crime.
Gilligans Island...people survive shipwreck....build homes with no seen tools....survive with no known animals or eco system..tons of guest stars randomly appear and leave without taking them. Barney the Dinosaur. purple goofy talking dinosaur lives in modern times to teach kids manners through song and dance.
practically every idea proposed through modern entertainment could be thought of as stupid. not just ghostbusters.
i'd argue over time that once success hits with stupid ideas, things stop being thought of as such and start being seen as 'yeah, this could work'..
that's all I was trying to get across...it was kind of a weird point to make. the only reason we are tearing feigbusters to shreds now, is because we have an acceptable standard of 'stupid' for the ghostbusters franchise. and when something veers away from that, and makes it even worse, that's a cause to rip it apart ;o)...
what are we talking about again? ;o) what's left of my head is spinning ;o)
I think the main problem is that is driving everyone insane is that fact that this is a REBOOT... it don't matter if its a good story or a bad story. Ghostbusters does NOT need to be REBOOTED/REHASHED/REMADE/RETOLD/RE-ENVISIONED or whatever other word that you want to throw into the mix that describes a director who throws away the cannon of a good movie and retells it with new actors and new effects. Have we not learned anything from remakes in the past. Remakes that are good are very few and far between. Persoanlly I liked the new Spiderman, but they really didn't have to retell the whole origin story again. The new Mad Max was good, but then again, Mad Max can take place anywhere and it doesn't matter. But look at all the other bad remakes... Arthur, Prom Night, Carrie, Rollerball, Last Night on the Left, Walking Tall, The Wicker Man, Godzilla (1998), The Day The Earth Stood Still, War of the Worlds, Flubber (even Robin couldn't save that one), Psycho (comon Vince Vaughn as Norman?), The Haunting (Leeam Neeson couldn't save this one even with his special skills), Clash of the Titans (was nothing but a CGI nightmare), the list can go on and on and on. The point is, there is so much canon in GB that doing a remake just screams BAD IDEA from the get go. Continuation would be fine and all the fans would be happy with it.
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