Sensing the Force: What's it all about?

Yeah, you could get a sense in watching the CW and listening to Dave in interviews what story elements he championed and those that GL wanted, and they were often very different. The Yoda arc in Season 6 was GL trying to fix a bit of what was lost in the PT in regards to the mysticism of the Force. Although he would never say it, I get the impression Dave is not a midichlorine fan.

I don't think anyone was really a fan of the midichlorian concept. It was entirely unnecessary for the story. All it did was answer a question no one was asking, and in a way that ran counter to what had been previously established (at least in terms of tone).

The one way that I could see it having worked out is if you later found out that the Jedi realized they were simply wrong about midichlorians. Like, that was a theory, and Qui-Gon sure believed it, but it was later discovered to be either incorrect or at least imprecise.

I suppose that's not gonna happen, though, since Lucas has apparently been fairly vocal about how it works, but I think the focus needs to be less on the "science" of the Force, and more on the dramatic meaning of it. Or maybe you argue that the Jedi's focus on the science of it was part of their downfall -- their hubris, their belief that they could control and predict these things, and their gradual distancing themselves from the real essence of the Force as a mystical energy field that isn't really well described with biological concepts.

-- EDIT --

The way I've always thought of it is that "the Force" is more like "chi" or "ki." It's...energy. Everyone has it, everyone can learn to manipulate it, but some people are especially good at that -- strong in it, if you will. Now, maybe you could explain this all by saying "Chi is produced by fluxon particles in the bloodstream, and those with a higher fluxon count are more able to do this. Fluxons are actually a separate type of energy particle that have only recently been explained thanks to new theories in Hawkingian physics and blah blah blah," but really it's all just words to describe a particular phenomenon, and it's the mystical approach that best teaches, say, the Shaolin monk to control his chi, rather than learning about his fluxon count.
 
Midichlorians never bothered me.

The way everyone reacted you'd think GL explained away the force itself or something. Not even.

Suppose a character in the prequels mentioned in passing that the Jedi would routinely measure how much weight kids could levitate using the Force. Big whoop. That's about how much midichlorians did to "ruin the Force" IMO.
 
I never understood the counting part. They live in your cells, right? Which cells? I mean, a count of ten thousand is nothing compared to how many cells you have in your body.
 
Midichlorians never bothered me.

The way everyone reacted you'd think GL explained away the force itself or something. Not even.

Suppose a character in the prequels mentioned in passing that the Jedi would routinely measure how much weight kids could levitate using the Force. Big whoop. That's about how much midichlorians did to "ruin the Force" IMO.

I don't think they "ruined" the Force. Rather, it was that change, plus a ton of other things that went wrong with TPM, plus the massive deflation of fan expectations and hopes, that was the problem. The midichlorians thing was one of those "tangible details" that people point to about what sucked about the movie. In my opinion, the real flaw of the midichlorians thing was threefold: (1) it explained something that nobody had asked a question about, (2) it changed an established "rule" of the universe to a degree (now the Force is pseudo-scientific rather than a pseudo-mystical energy field), and (3) most importantly, they didn't do anything else with it. It served no dramatic purpose whatsoever, and its main effect was to tell the audience that it was changing the rules of the game, so to speak. In that sense, it was jarring for no real reason.

When you're building a fictional universe, you establish certain rules by which that universe is governed. You can break these rules, but you have to do so for a reason. Ghostbusters does a terrific job with this in that it sets up a "rule" with the "no crossing the streams" thing, and then promptly breaks that rule for dramatic purpose. You'll note that nobody particularly complained that they crossed the streams and then did not have total protonic reversal the way Egon described. The film flagrantly breaks the rule it's established...but no one cares because they (A) acknowledge that they're breaking the rule, and (B) do so for dramatic purpose at the climax of the film. It's the heroic sacrifice (or might be, until the guys survive it) that's necessary to defeat Gozer. People are so caught up in the drama of the moment, that nobody notices that either Egon was flat-out wrong, or that he lied, or that the film lied and broke its own rule. None of this matters because the rule-break serves a dramatic purpose.

The midichlorian thing, however, served no dramatic purpose as a breaking of the rule. It was just...there. And then it was totally abandoned for the rest of the film series. Nobody ever touched it again (maybe they did on CW, but I haven't gotten there). It'd be as if Geordi LaForge had a scene in a ST:TNG episode where he explained to an alien fascinated by the warp core of the ship that these "dilithium crystals" Geordi had been referring to were actually crystalline gnomes made of dilithium who powered the ship with happy thoughts of gumdrops, and then never made mention of this ever again. Has the universe of Star Trek changed, really? Nah, not really. The ship still flies, the warp core can still need to be jettisoned, etc., etc. But what you've done is undermine the legitimacy of the world by suddenly changing the implicit "rules" of the universe.

You can break the rules for two reasons: (1) because the drama of the moment is so important and so overpowering that nobody cares, or (2) because the act of breaking the rules actually serves the drama itself. You can get away with a "Ghostbusters" style rule-breaking. You can also get away with showing that the rule break is a part of the story (e.g., Jedi hubris believed the midichlorian theory, but it was all just another example of them becoming further alienated from the true Force and its mystical roots). But you can't just break a rule and leave it broken on the floor for no reason.

I never understood the counting part. They live in your cells, right? Which cells? I mean, a count of ten thousand is nothing compared to how many cells you have in your body.

If you google Midichlorians, you can find a Starwars.com article where Lucas goes into more detail. Suffice to say...he's not a biologist.
 
But are people randomly born with the force, or does the force choose people to bond with?

I'd prefare to think it was random, because if the force is choosing, then it is also choosing some people to make into sith, or at least dark siders.

And did new jedi still continue to be born after Order 66?

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it is some random and some inherited. I haven't read them in a long time, but I believe this was discussed in the Jedi Academy trilogy with the character that his race were all clones and he was thought to be defective due to his force abilities. There was also Streen that if I remember his main talents were sensing Force users and hiding himself.

And on to the main topic, I believe that it is easier to sense a Force user if they are using the Force, but it is a talent to sense latent ability that can be mastered. I vaguely remember something about that in the Young Jedi Knight books. I think of it as a light, latent users who are untrained are like a candle and the more training you have the brighter your light. In Courtship of Princess Leia there is a scene where there is a character that is dying (if memory serves it is Luke but I cannot be sure without going back and rereading it) and the plants/creatures around him give some of their Force presence to him to allow him to survive.

Once again someone correct me if I am wrong, I haven't read any of the books since Visions of the Future/ Spector of the Past.


I'm a leaf on the wind.
 
Please correct me if I am wrong, but I believe it is some random and some inherited. I haven't read them in a long time, but I believe this was discussed in the Jedi Academy trilogy with the character that his race were all clones and he was thought to be defective due to his force abilities. There was also Streen that if I remember his main talents were sensing Force users and hiding himself.

And on to the main topic, I believe that it is easier to sense a Force user if they are using the Force, but it is a talent to sense latent ability that can be mastered. I vaguely remember something about that in the Young Jedi Knight books. I think of it as a light, latent users who are untrained are like a candle and the more training you have the brighter your light. In Courtship of Princess Leia there is a scene where there is a character that is dying (if memory serves it is Luke but I cannot be sure without going back and rereading it) and the plants/creatures around him give some of their Force presence to him to allow him to survive.

Once again someone correct me if I am wrong, I haven't read any of the books since Visions of the Future/ Spector of the Past.


I'm a leaf on the wind.

Ah, but the thing is, that's all EU stuff. For the moment, that's all basically retconned or at least not binding on things moving forward. Officially, none of that stuff happened, so we can't count on the explanations of concepts remaining accurate.

My own take was that one's ancestry might make it more likely to be Force-sensitive, but that it could still happen apparently randomly. Again, like other abilities.
 
Ah, but the thing is, that's all EU stuff. For the moment, that's all basically retconned or at least not binding on things moving forward. Officially, none of that stuff happened, so we can't count on the explanations of concepts remaining accurate.

My own take was that one's ancestry might make it more likely to be Force-sensitive, but that it could still happen apparently randomly. Again, like other abilities.

Yes, very true.
This may be sac-relig, but I have come to view Star Wars as I do X-Men, different veins in timelines and different universes. The timeline I'll always go to includes the books.


I'm a leaf on the wind.
 
Force ability would have to be able to appear randomly it just makes too much sense to not to, otherwise every Jedi would come from a long line of Jedi and nothing in any of the movies, or the books that I've read, even hints at that. And if Force abilities was only inheritable then the whole no love and marriage thing makes absolutely no sense since if Jedi can't marry then how the hell would they spawn more Jedi unless they're encouraged to spread their seed liberally, so to speak.
 
Being a Jedi is like being an Olympic athlete.
Some is natural ability. A lot of it is training.

And If you live the life of a couch potato eating junk food you might have natural abilities but nobody can really tell.
 
Being a Jedi is like being an Olympic athlete.
Some is natural ability. A lot of it is training.

And If you live the life of a couch potato eating junk food you might have natural abilities but nobody can really tell.
Very good analogy!


I dunno . . . . . when it comes to sports that favor strength or speed or size, pure genetic lottery is much more relevant than most people want to believe. Very few people on earth could do any amount of training and perform like Lance Armstrong, illegal doping or not.


I would think that's even more true for Force sensibilities.
 
I dunno . . . . . when it comes to sports that favor strength or speed or size, pure genetic lottery is much more relevant than most people want to believe. Very few people on earth could do any amount of training and perform like Lance Armstrong, illegal doping or not.


I would think that's even more true for Force sensibilities.
genetic lottery = midichloreans.

That's the point.


Luke at the start of ANH is like the couch potato. He wasn't detectable because he's untrained.
 
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Yes, very true.
This may be sac-relig, but I have come to view Star Wars as I do X-Men, different veins in timelines and different universes. The timeline I'll always go to includes the books.


I'm a leaf on the wind.

Nothing sacrilegious about that in the slightest. I think folks can approach Star Wars fandom as they see fit, incorporating whatever aspects of the MASSIVE amount of material that's out there that they please. Hell, I figure if you don't like it, ignore it. If you really love it, add it in to your "personal" canon. Lord knows the franchise is big enough and has enough material in it to accommodate all manner of fans.
 
I dunno . . . . . when it comes to sports that favor strength or speed or size, pure genetic lottery is much more relevant than most people want to believe. Very few people on earth could do any amount of training and perform like Lance Armstrong, illegal doping or not.


I would think that's even more true for Force sensibilities.

Yes, genetic predisposition will determine how good you can get in things like endurance sports. I'm actually a case in point. I have always been active but when I was 35 I began to race triathlons and went from no experience to the Ironman World Chapionships in 18 months. Sure I trained hard but my Mom was a previous age group Ironman champion in the 80's. So I was predisposed to be competitive. However if I had never given it a try, it could have been an ability I had that remained undiscovered.
 
I grew up reading the books, so no matter what the "official" SW TPTB say, I think I will always revert back to the books and movies 4, 5, & 6.
 
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