Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?

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Because the promotion of a high school dropout with a criminal record to the Captain of a Starship capable of destroying entire planets is entirely without any degree of sense. You can argue about the science of the movie, the acting, so many things, but anyone with any degree of common sense should see that the promotion of Kirk is a complete pile of horse ****.

He went to the Academy just like the rest of them.

Who he was before he joined the Academy is moot.

Just like the rest of them.


And he "should" have graduated.

He didn't "cheat" the first time he took the Kobayashi Maru test. He didn't cheat the second time. Why would taking the same test (that the instructors know has no solution) multiple times count toward his final grade? The first time he took the test and failed should have been his final mark. Therefore his should have graduated with the rest of his class.

But I guess you not only forgot that Kirk was given a commendation for original thinking when he described taking the Kobayashi Maru test in Wrath of Khan... you also forgot we're not talking about JJTrek here. :lol


Kevin
 
Because it has a story that's not dictated by it's flaws.



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Exactly!


Wrath of Khan is an amazing film! Every indication of why it is "good" described by everyone participating in the thread causes it to rise above its downfalls.

The whole film requires you to look past a blatantly impossible occurance (the mistaking of one planet for another) not only in nature or science, but in the ability of trained professional star voyagers to make such a blunder. In hindsight it makes no sense, but the spectacular and powerful movie that passes before your eyes either causes you to forget that major plot hole, or allows you to give it a free pass.

Plot holes (or lack thereof) are not what give a movie its charm.


If you like a film for whatever reason, the nitpicks are not really a big deal. I picked Star Trek II to pieces here, and despite it all, everyone agrees it is a great film (as do I of course).

But focusing on nitpicks to prove why a film is unworthy of being "good" or "liked" is not the way to go about it.


I think I've made my point. :)


Kevin
 
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This is not my favorite Trek film. I hear people say they like it, but I like some of the other ones better. It's just my opinion really.
 
Ahh - look who I just freed from the Albertsons claw catcher machine
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he said he's still wearing the same face he had after watching Into Darkness.
 
Even more reason to bring him directly to sickbay! :lol

I must admit, I never could figure that one out.

I always assumed it's because he figured McCoy would be on the bridge, so he was taking him straight to the Dr., as opposed to going to sickbay, and then waiting for the doctor to come there from the bridge.
 
I always assumed it's because he figured McCoy would be on the bridge, so he was taking him straight to the Dr., as opposed to going to sickbay, and then waiting for the doctor to come there from the bridge.

True. McCoy was often on the bridge. However there was no medical equipment there! If he was there I can imagine the scenario would have gone like this:

Scotty: "Doctor! My nephew is hurt!"

McCoy: "Quickly man, let's get him to sickbay!"

:lol
 
True. McCoy was often on the bridge. However there was no medical equipment there! If he was there I can imagine the scenario would have gone like this:

Scotty: "Doctor! My nephew is hurt!"

McCoy: "Quickly man, let's get him to sickbay!"

:lol

well considering engineering just had the crap blown out of it... I think the immediate (and more instinctive) response was "I need to get him to Dr. McCoy"

while some may say this is a flaw in the film, I think it's more of a character moment. For the first time Scotty doesn't know what to do to fix the problem, and has a desperate emotional response.

And concerning Saavik's emotional response, the lack of emotion is a learned behavior, a discipline. It's not genetic. Hell, STTMP even had Spock going through the ritual of Kolinar... which was the purging of all emotion. So Saavik's response was appropriate, given her young age and lack of experience, even for a Vulcan.

And the Kobiashi Maru... The point of the simulation was to put the cadet in a normal situation, and then when the whole bridge starts to blow up, and sirens start blaring... it scares the crap out of them. She wasn't expecting it. It was meant to rattle her. And that was the whole point.

If this is perceived as a flaw in the film, then I suggest you go back and watch wise cracking JJ Kirk take the Kobiashi Maru... where there's big open windows, and he can plainly see that it's a simulation. It's not an identical version of the bridge, that simulating a possible run in with the Klingons as closely as possible. So the whole "you should experience fear" thing. Meh. What are they going to be afraid of other than flunking?

Any way you want to cut it, Wrath of Khan was internally consistent. It could stand on it's own whether you'd seen Space See or not.
 
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I think you're missing the point. We all LOVE TWOK, we're being pedantic on purpose to make a point. ;)

For the record I'm not a fan of JJ Trek but I think a lot of the criticisms are just that, pedantic. My biggest issue is that the lost what made the core characters likeable in the first place, primarily with Kirk.
 
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I hadn't seen Space Seed in probably 30 years, and TWOK since the 1st showing on TV back in the 80's. I watched them back to back recently, as tgreco said TWOK can stand alone, but together they are an incredible Trek experience! :thumbsup :cool
 
I hadn't seen Space Seed in probably 30 years, and TWOK since the 1st showing on TV back in the 80's. I watched them back to back recently, as tgreco said TWOK can stand alone, but together they are an incredible Trek experience! :thumbsup :cool

Too true! Great combo. :thumbsup
 
Jeyl, why does every Star Trek thread have to turn into a bash JJTrek fest with you?

Can't you at least stick to the subject at hand? All I want to do is talk about how poorly written Star Trek II was, and all you want to do is slam the new movie at every turn.


;)

PS- I cant believe I actually forgot Saavik was already a lieutenant while taking the Kobayashi Maru test; that makes it even worse! :lol


Kevin

She wasn't the only, there was at least one other officer cadet aboard the Enterprise. The way I always interpreted it was that Saavik and the other officer cadets were going through Command School which was why she was wearing a regular Starfleet officer's uniform with orange on all of her dept. markings. It makes sense if you think about it given that the modern day military send personnel to all sorts of different schools at different times in their career depending on what rank they are, what rank they'll be promoted to next, and what sort of job or billet they're likely to get next.
 
She wasn't the only, there was at least one other officer cadet aboard the Enterprise. The way I always interpreted it was that Saavik and the other officer cadets were going through Command School which was why she was wearing a regular Starfleet officer's uniform with orange on all of her dept. markings. It makes sense if you think about it given that the modern day military send personnel to all sorts of different schools at different times in their career depending on what rank they are, what rank they'll be promoted to next, and what sort of job or billet they're likely to get next.

That's how I saw it. She was being prepped for command.
 
That's how I saw it. She was being prepped for command.

Exactly, and I don't think that it was ever mentioned that the Kobiyashi Maru was part of the regular Academy curriculum, and there was even a book (yes, the novels aren't canon) that covered what the various crew members did for their run on the Kobiyashi Maru and all of them that did it did it at Command School and not during their time at the Academy.
 
About Saavik's rank-

The easy answer is that Starfleet while patterned after military structure, does play fast and loose with rank and protocol.

Spock had not taken the Kobayashi test at all. The "fan based" answer is that he was on the fast track to becomming an officer and bypassed the test.


About her "emotions." Yes I'm aware that she was supposed to be "half Romulan." :) There is a deleted scene (just before everyone gathers on the bridge to look at Genesis and say goodbye to Spock) in which David and Saavik exchange a look of attraction to one another (suggesting they would begin a relationship). Kirk sees the look going on between them and notes that Saavik is "learning by doing" (repeating what he told her in the turbolift when she said she found humour not logical)...

...Kind of forgot where I was going with this. :lol

Anyway Nick Meyer was told that Saavik couldn't cry because she is Vulcan, to which he replied, well that is what makes her an interesting Vulcan!

And when Star Trek IV was out, there was the rumour that Saavik remained on Vulcan (rather than returning to Earth with the gang) because she was pregnant with Spock's child (just another tidbit of trivia from back in the day).


But let me say again, don't me wrong with this thread. My point was "not" to get bogged down with continuity, gaps are rampant even in Trek's best outing. :)


Oh and Star Trek II is just a rehash of Balance of Terror with the villain from Space Seed. *runs and hides* :lol


Kevin
 
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