Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Pre-release)

The lightsaber in and of itself is not an "icon", it's more like part of a puzzle. And I never thought Luke would keep anything of Vader, Darth Vader wasn't his father, Anakin was. Why would Luke keep his helmet? He burned the suit and likely walked away.
 
It's going to take quite a bit to sell to that this lightsaber was both found and some Excalibur-type mystical icon to me. In the first two trilogies we see very little in the way of this type of symbolism... and with Cloud City being pretty darn big and Bespin being a gas giant of a planet (and us seeing Vader leave Cloud City directly after his battle with Luke) just makes the type of recovery just crazy.

We also have the recovery of Vader's helmet - which you think Luke would've kept an eye or made sure was destroyed... or something.

However, our history shows that there have been more than one or two quests for objects like this. Heck, Lucas made a whole other series about that kind of stuff.

Personally - while I am waiting and hopeful of the end result - I still think it's lazy storytelling.


Do you really think that after Luke torched his fathers body that he would rummage through his remains to make sure nothing was left. He torched him and walked away. And what happened to Luke's saber we will see explained. Not in some silly way but a plausible way. I've read all the spoilers and there's no weak story telling. It's all good. Just wait and see. :)


Ben
 
Well, as I said, my initial reaction to the notion of that saber surviving was that it seemed pretty hokey but it is reassuring to me that people that have been spoiled seem to like what they've read. I'm still going to try and stay relatively spoiler free and just take it all in as I watch the movie (a dozen times).

As for the First Order, that box description is interesting. Definitely makes it seems like it's not so much an evolution or continuation of the Empire but rather a somewhat new development on the galactic stage. It certainly sounds like the Empire did definitively cease to exist at some point after ROTJ and then the First Order sprang up some time later. At least that's how I'm reading it. Of course that still leaves the matter of what the status of the Rebel Alliance/New Republic/Resistance is...
 
Do you really think that after Luke torched his fathers body that he would rummage through his remains to make sure nothing was left. He torched him and walked away. And what happened to Luke's saber we will see explained. Not in some silly way but a plausible way. I've read all the spoilers and there's no weak story telling. It's all good. Just wait and see. :)


Ben
No - you burn it until there's nothing left but ash. You don't leave a helmet or or anything lying around for someone to let someone create a symbol or make some sort of martyr out of him.

And nonsense - this whole movie has poor and weak plot holes littered throughout it. Unfortunately, too many fanboys are blinded by the idea that JJ is doing this, that there are practical effects and that Lucas isn't do this. Wake up - too much of this movie sounds like EU stuff that's created to sate the fanboy appetite and that should never make the movies.

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The lightsaber in and of itself is not an "icon", it's more like part of a puzzle. And I never thought Luke would keep anything of Vader, Darth Vader wasn't his father, Anakin was. Why would Luke keep his helmet? He burned the suit and likely walked away.
See above.
 
And nonsense - this whole movie has poor and weak plot holes littered throughout it. Unfortunately, too many fanboys are blinded by the idea that JJ is doing this, that there are practical effects and that Lucas isn't do this. Wake up - too much of this movie sounds like EU stuff that's created to sate the fanboy appetite and that should never make the movies.

Assuming you and I have read the same story synopsis, you're out of your mind. :) If not, you are speculating and you are still wrong, nothing about the actual story that we will see jibes with what you just wrote.
 
I don't understand why fan boys would be blinded by JJ. his star treks were pure hack. Plot contrivences littered throughout. Probably more that any movies I've ever seen

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I'm not a huge fan of all of JJ's stuff, I never cared much for Lost or the Mission Impossible stuff, I very much enjoy new Trek and I liked Super 8. But this isn't about just JJ. EVERYTHING, and I mean everything, I have seen, read, witnessed myself, heard from others, everything is pointing to this film being terrific. And it's not because of JJ, they have assembled an amazing team who clearly have put their heart and souls into this. To dismiss it 5 months before it's release as fan service and contrivances is wildly inaccurate.
 
And that's great. Personally, I think that super 8 is brilliant. And that allows me to sleep at night.

But trek just kills me. It was written by the same duo who did transformers and it shows

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No - you burn it until there's nothing left but ash. You don't leave a helmet or or anything lying around for someone to let someone create a symbol or make some sort of martyr out of him.

And nonsense - this whole movie has poor and weak plot holes littered throughout it. Unfortunately, too many fanboys are blinded by the idea that JJ is doing this, that there are practical effects and that Lucas isn't do this. Wake up - too much of this movie sounds like EU stuff that's created to sate the fanboy appetite and that should never make the movies.

- - - Updated - - -


See above.


Your entitled to your opinion but I don't agree.


Ben
 
This movie is not just made by JJ. It's a team of people who are as passionate about Star Wars as we are. Personally I'm more excited about Lawrence Kazdan being a writer on this. You guys do remember Empire Strikes Back don't you. That guy knows how to bring a story together without plot holes.Yes I loved JJTREK but I really don't like Lost and am not a JJ fanboy in any way.


Ben
 
Haven't we had this exact debate in this thread like 5 months ago?! I feel such a weird deja vu....
We'll probably do this whenever there is a lull between trailers.

I imagine that the spoilers thread has more meat to it

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I don't understand why people are still insisting that what you see falling from Cloud City is Luke's hand or lightsaber. IT IS NOT!! Freeze frame on it, you can plainly see that is is just a piece of debris. This was only put into the shot to give it a sense of scale and add some movement into an otherwise static shot.

Luke's hand was cut off at least a minute or so before he falls. It is NOT in the chute he gets sucked into. As he comes to a stop, before the hatch below him opens, there is nothing there with him. If anything, his hand/lightsaber would have already fallen and been way out of sight before Luke even gets to the weather vane (or whatever it is) that he comes to a stop on.
 
Why did the trapdoor open under Luke when it did? I got the impression it was some sort of automated dumping of stuff. Like it could have included stuff sucked into other areas down there too. Like maybe Luke's hand & saber. Maybe it was timed periodically. Maybe it responded to a threshold amount of weight. I dunno.

The reason why people have been seeing Luke's hand/saber in the falling object for 35 years is because it's the first thing that comes to mind when you see that shot of the falling object. If they didn't intend for that to be Luke's hand/saber then they pretty much should have, just because it feels natural.

I stand by my previous comment - no matter how they explain this in ep#7, future generations will probably continue to see Luke's hand/saber falling from Cloud City in ESB, and they will probably think the saber showing up 35 years later is an obvious retcon. Providing a rationalized explanation for how it could have survived does not prevent it from being a weak point in the storytelling. Building elaborate or important new plot points on top of it to "justify it" does not fix it either. It won't sink the whole movie by itself or anything, but it's still a weak point.
 
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Your entitled to your opinion but I don't agree.
Didn't expect you to. See my comment about fanboys...

This movie is not just made by JJ. It's a team of people who are as passionate about Star Wars as we are. Personally I'm more excited about Lawrence Kazdan being a writer on this. You guys do remember Empire Strikes Back don't you. That guy knows how to bring a story together without plot holes.Yes I loved JJTREK but I really don't like Lost and am not a JJ fanboy in any way.
I like JJ, he's a fan and he's obviously doing something right based on his success and following. I enjoyed his Star Trek - but, having see the original Trek - it's really obvious that he both dumbed down Star Trek and turned it into something decidedly different than the Star Trek we had seen for years and years and years. It's obvious in some of the leaks we've heard about (and I stopped following leaks a bit ago - it seems some new info has popped up) and have seen that him and his fellow writers (Kasdan included) have opted to take what I feel very strongly is the easy way out - this is best represented by the return of Stormtroopers (who are not clones) and the Empire (or the First Order). Yes, we'll have some folks accept this without a second thought (because of thing A or thing B - or in Rebels they did this - two wrongs don't make a right)... but, that doesn't make it any less lazy.

We don't know who cam up with the plot. Kasdan is generally solid - ESB and Raiders were obviously amazing movies that he had a hand in (among others that are well regarded). It appears that one of his strong points is dealing with characters (as I believe others have mentioned JJ is also pretty good with this, too) - so I'm guessing we'll see some great character writing - I just hope the rest of the story is that strong.

As I've said before - I'm more than happy to overlook this shortcomings if they're explained well and they're done well. I just think relying on the same old tricks has been done (and done again)... it seems like the kind of stuff that's better suited for the EU and not the big screen. I think it weakens the OT and even the PT - I'd rather see something newer, bigger and more exciting... but, JJ and company know how to pull on the old heartstrings by showing us X-Wings and TIE Fighters.


Haven't we had this exact debate in this thread like 5 months ago?! I feel such a weird deja vu....
I'm not sure if debate is the best word for it. Discussion perhaps? I'm sure we'll have it in 5 months again if it the discussion works itself that way.

I don't understand why people are still insisting that what you see falling from Cloud City is Luke's hand or lightsaber. IT IS NOT!! Freeze frame on it, you can plainly see that is is just a piece of debris. This was only put into the shot to give it a sense of scale and add some movement into an otherwise static shot.

Luke's hand was cut off at least a minute or so before he falls. It is NOT in the chute he gets sucked into. As he comes to a stop, before the hatch below him opens, there is nothing there with him. If anything, his hand/lightsaber would have already fallen and been way out of sight before Luke even gets to the weather vane (or whatever it is) that he comes to a stop on.
It's clear in the ESB novelization that this is part of the weather vane assembly. I don't think that's clear in the movie at all and I think a whole of people may've made the assumption that this was Luke's hand and saber. We don't see anything clearly in that chute and there's no reason why the hand/saber couldn't have also been in the same chute - if Luke ended up in it, it's very possible that they could have been, too - for the same reasons Luke was. But, it's moot as it had been established that it wasn't - so it isn't. :)

That doesn't make the likelihood of recovering either any less plausible.
 
Assuming you and I have read the same story synopsis, you're out of your mind. :) If not, you are speculating and you are still wrong, nothing about the actual story that we will see jibes with what you just wrote.
Recovering a lost lightsaber and helmet, Stormtroopers (not Clones), Empire (or First Order) - there ya go: poor and weak plot holes. No speculation needed and no explanation needed (as if I haven't explained it enough)... this sounds more like EU stuff than stuff that should be on the big screen. And I'm still of perfectly sound mind.

Go ahead and keep eating it up... I wish I could so blindly accept what they're feeding us.
 
This movie is not just made by JJ. It's a team of people who are as passionate about Star Wars as we are. Personally I'm more excited about Lawrence Kazdan being a writer on this. You guys do remember Empire Strikes Back don't you. That guy knows how to bring a story together without plot holes.Yes I loved JJTREK but I really don't like Lost and am not a JJ fanboy in any way.


Ben

This. There's not one overriding opinion that no one's afraid to say no to this time.
 
Recovering a lost lightsaber and helmet, Stormtroopers (not Clones), Empire (or First Order) - there ya go: poor and weak plot holes. No speculation needed and no explanation needed (as if I haven't explained it enough)... this sounds more like EU stuff than stuff that should be on the big screen. And I'm still of perfectly sound mind.

Go ahead and keep eating it up... I wish I could so blindly accept what they're feeding us.

1. you're assuming it's all true
2. Even if it is, you're then assuming there's no way it can be done right.

Seems pretty shortsighted frankly.

I've seen plenty of things in previews or articles that i thought were going to blow chunks that turned out pretty damned good.
 
Well, as I said, my initial reaction to the notion of that saber surviving was that it seemed pretty hokey but it is reassuring to me that people that have been spoiled seem to like what they've read. I'm still going to try and stay relatively spoiler free and just take it all in as I watch the movie (a dozen times).

The only way this whole thing made sense is if Anakin was given some kind of special crystal for his lightsaber and that is what is the key or whatever. The Jedi could have given the Chosen One a special crystal and it maybe the crystal would be some kind of key. Otherwise is still seems pretty dumb. It reminds me of those young adult novels that had the Glove of Darth Vader. If I remember correctly supposedly his armored gauntlet flew out of the Death Star explosion to some planet. :lol

As for the First Order, that box description is interesting. Definitely makes it seems like it's not so much an evolution or continuation of the Empire but rather a somewhat new development on the galactic stage. It certainly sounds like the Empire did definitively cease to exist at some point after ROTJ and then the First Order sprang up some time later. At least that's how I'm reading it. Of course that still leaves the matter of what the status of the Rebel Alliance/New Republic/Resistance is...

Maybe, like the old EU, there were all kinds of Imperial remnants scattered around and some new figure united them. It just doesn't make sense that the Empire had all those troops and ships and just went away after the Death Star blew up.
 
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