What is DC Comics doing wrong?

Rotwang · Jun 16, 2012

The point is that Superman, Wonder Woman etc aren't really characters, they are personifications of ideals, they represent values that we should all aspire to. They wield vast powers, to represent how much we can achieve with the right motivation and cause. They represent Truth, Justice, Compassion, Integrity and our ability to fight adversity no matter how bad things get. When Superman saves the day, it's really about the people who put out fires, rescue others, raise money, travel to far out places to help others in trouble.

If you tone them down to grim and dark, you lose everything they stand for.

Dark is merely a fad, it's not the hallmark of a greater sophistication, of better storytelling or any other superlative, it's just a marketing gimmick.

cboath · Jun 16, 2012

coofunkcurly said:
Why is that a flaw? I'm not trying to be funny. Just wondering as I haven't read a comic book in 25 years.

I'd have to go back and look up the specifics that have been posted, but it's along the lines of they've changed his origin a bit, I believe he's now royalty. He's weaker, the suit is at least partially responsible for his powers, they've changed the suit, and there's more, but I just can't remember offhand.

They changed him (and others apparently) simply for the sake of change, not because it was an evolution, or because it made sense.

If true, for the movie to succeed, it's going to have to be a helluva story and amazingly done to get the masses to overlook the changes.

And don't forget the actual reason for this movie. That being that is being done 'just under the wire' to avoid losing the rights (at least based on what's been posted here in the past). Making a movie to keep the rights doesn't usually result in a great flick, though it's not a given. Just as making one to cash in on someone else's success rarely works. Fact is, if there was no avengers movie - the JL talk would still be dead. I think if they use the Avengers success only as a reason to start up JL again, that is fine. As long as the goal is to make a good movie first and everything else is second. Sadly, I believe the first goal will be to cash in and make as much money off the avengers success as possible, story will be second, third or worse.

YenChih Lin · Jun 16, 2012

@cboath: But how much "power-down" makes Supes still Superman? They powered him down in the 80's now again?

I fear the number crunchers are on the cash binge again…

@clancampbell: TDK was never that much of a team player, look at JLU, he operated more alone. It's also very difficult to root greek mythology and Atlantis myth in the real world, unless someone comes with a bright idea. Or you can say: screw it - as far as TDK concerned, he roots back to a real world enviroment as what can be possibly made of money and tech and everything else is possible, so that fantastic characters can appear.

Jedi2016 · Jun 16, 2012

Rotwang said:
The point is that Superman, Wonder Woman etc aren't really characters, they are personifications of ideals, they represent values that we should all aspire to. They wield vast powers, to represent how much we can achieve with the right motivation and cause. They represent Truth, Justice, Compassion, Integrity and our ability to fight adversity no matter how bad things get. When Superman saves the day, it's really about the people who put out fires, rescue others, raise money, travel to far out places to help others in trouble.

If you tone them down to grim and dark, you lose everything they stand for.

Dark is merely a fad, it's not the hallmark of a greater sophistication, of better storytelling or any other superlative, it's just a marketing gimmick.

It works for Batman because that's who he is. But you're right.. it can't apply to the others.

terryr · Jun 16, 2012

JBReplicas · Jun 17, 2012

In fact DC did movies long before Marvel, Superman was out in the late 70's, followed later by the original Batman in 89, it seems Marvel just waited that little bit longer, for the technology of film making to allow them to make the most out of the visual aspect of their films, which for a comic book movie is a large chunk of it. DC played their big card with Superman very early on and as its such a classic film, anything else since just hasn't lived up?

JD · Jun 17, 2012

CommanderCody said:
In fact DC did movies long before Marvel, Superman was out in the late 70's, followed later by the original Batman in 89, it seems Marvel just waited that little bit longer, for the technology of film making to allow them to make the most out of the visual aspect of their films, which for a comic book movie is a large chunk of it. DC played their big card with Superman very early on and as its such a classic film, anything else since just hasn't lived up?

Marvel did not wait - they made several B type movies including Captain America, Fantastic Four and The Punisher (and arguably the Blade series).

They tried some TV stuff: The Incredible Hulk, Spider-Man, Daredevil (via the Hulk), Thor (via the Hulk), Doctor Strange and Nick Fury. It was obviously hit or miss and it all stands out as pretty dated and campy to me (although I have a soft spot for that Doctor Strange TV movie - although that might just be sugar coated memories of something I haven't seen in 20+ years).

DC did not play their "big card" early on. Superman: The Movie came out 40 years after the debut of the comic book hero and after the successful George Reeves' TV show (1956) and the serial adventures starring Kirk Allyn (1948/50).

Even Batman predates the 1989 Tim Burton/Michael Keaton romp. There's the obvious Adam West series in the 60's - which spawned a movie in 1966. There was also the 1949 serial Batman and Robin with Robert Lowery and Johnny Duncan.

Let's not forgt some of DC's other blockbusters: Supergirl and Swamp Thing in the early 80s - and Steel, Jonah Hex and Catwoman a little more recently.

...and DC tried their hand at TV as well outside of the above mentioned Batman. We also had a Batgirl TV movie spin-off, a failed Justice League pilot, 2 Legion of Superhero specials and the succesful Wonder Woman series of the 70s - and a failed pilot reboot of WW just a few years ago. Let's not forget Smallville, Lois & Clark, there was a Superboy series in the late 80s/early 90s, The Flash (which brought Mark Hamill back to the screen), Human Target and even the Swamp Thing had a short run. (I have to note the Capt. Marvel/Shazam Kroft TV series of the 70s - which I think might've been a DC character by that point. Which I absolutely loved as a kid, but I'm sure doesn't hold up well at all).

Anyway you look at it, both major comics companies have had their struggles and successes and nothing came over night or early on.

cboath · Jun 17, 2012

Ever since Keaton and Burton left batman, DC has always seemed money driven. Nothing more typical of it that the Batmans after Keaton. The logic seemed to be how many stars can we stuff in here to draw people to the theater. The result were flicks that weren't very good or simply very bad.

The only exception to that so far seems to be Nolan's Batman's. Everything else has been about chasing the dollar it seems.

Someone said Marvel just got lucky this go round. Luck is one or two hits. IM, IM2, Thor, CA, Hulk (with norton), the Avengers were all very good to excellent. 1-2 is luck, 6 is not luck, but doing something very right. Marvel took the opinion (it's an an interview with them somewhere) that they could take these things in house so they were true to the comics and they'd have final say on everything and do it right and still make money. That would seem to be why it's working for them.

DC, on the other hand, just wants to make money and everything else is secondary. Until that changes and they put people in charge who care about doing it right and being true to their characters, it won't change.

Luke0312 · Jun 17, 2012

I'd like to see DC take on showing Superman's backstory. I think about what he must have felt with all his power (even if it was fully realized) while growing up, having to hide it, not understanding why he is the way he is, what's the point of it, etc. They make references to it in the 78 film when Clark is talking to Jonathon near the very first of the movie. Having a good actor who can show a lot of emotion and draw the on the audience's empathy would be necessary. Focus at least half the movie on that, then have him roll into some real action. If done right, it could set up a good sequal, to bring in more money for them.

EyeofSauron · Jun 17, 2012

smallville?

YenChih Lin · Jun 17, 2012

JD, in this thread I wanted to focus on the movies, TV doesn't count, even if they had their fingers in it. It's the movies I feel DC could do better.

JD said:
Marvel did not wait - they made several B type movies including Captain America, Fantastic Four and The Punisher (and arguably the Blade series).

They tried some TV stuff: The Incredible Hulk, Spider-Man, Daredevil (via the Hulk), Thor (via the Hulk), Doctor Strange and Nick Fury. It was obviously hit or miss and it all stands out as pretty dated and campy to me (although I have a soft spot for that Doctor Strange TV movie - although that might just be sugar coated memories of something I haven't seen in 20+ years).

DC did not play their "big card" early on. Superman: The Movie came out 40 years after the debut of the comic book hero and after the successful George Reeves' TV show (1956) and the serial adventures starring Kirk Allyn (1948/50).

Even Batman predates the 1989 Tim Burton/Michael Keaton romp. There's the obvious Adam West series in the 60's - which spawned a movie in 1966. There was also the 1949 serial Batman and Robin with Robert Lowery and Johnny Duncan.

Let's not forgt some of DC's other blockbusters: Supergirl and Swamp Thing in the early 80s - and Steel, Jonah Hex and Catwoman a little more recently.

...and DC tried their hand at TV as well outside of the above mentioned Batman. We also had a Batgirl TV movie spin-off, a failed Justice League pilot, 2 Legion of Superhero specials and the succesful Wonder Woman series of the 70s - and a failed pilot reboot of WW just a few years ago. Let's not forget Smallville, Lois & Clark, there was a Superboy series in the late 80s/early 90s, The Flash (which brought Mark Hamill back to the screen), Human Target and even the Swamp Thing had a short run. (I have to note the Capt. Marvel/Shazam Kroft TV series of the 70s - which I think might've been a DC character by that point. Which I absolutely loved as a kid, but I'm sure doesn't hold up well at all).

Anyway you look at it, both major comics companies have had their struggles and successes and nothing came over night or early on.

RougeAvenger81 · Jun 23, 2012

I may be a bit opposite of what some are saying. So please, just hear my little rant. DC in my opinion as far as movies go can not be fully what the characters were originally. Marvel has made their movies bright, flashy, large scale, and they did it well with a lot of action. DC has started a good line with Chris Nolan in several ways, if more movie makers for other DC movies and the JLA would follow them. TDK is dark and it is gritty and edgy. However, it has deep meaning in the story. The story goes somewhere. And you can tell by the previews of TDK Rises that there is light in some way at the end of the story and although Batman is edgy and dark his values have still shown through.

Now translate Nolan's realistic style of filming and story over to the super powered heroes of DC. How do you make superman more real and relateable. One way I guess is to dumb down his powers just a bit so he does feel pain. Doesn't kill him but he feels pain.

My view is hard to explain. I can visualize it, but it's hard to convey. Create a large story that is deep, and emotional. That's where DC can go that Marvel hasn't so much. They have big action and large scenes. DC can be dark, but it can be full of emotion. A serious take on the super heroes and their lives.

Bring them together in some way that unites them in a serious story full of emotion, struggle and even heartache. Heck, for some of the lesser characters like in Marvel, throw 2-3 together as though they have been trying to come together and do what no one has. Have one of them sacrific and die to unite the rest? Far out, but just brainstorming.

Superman and Batman don't need reboots to do the JLA. Other characters need to be done first though. WW, Flash, GL even needs a reboot in a more serious tone before the JLA could be done right. Film it in a realistic style and with deeper meaning then a large action movie. And when they come together at the end or they finally unite at watchtower for the first time, don't have them in costume. Have them as Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent, Hal Jordan, Diana, etc. Although superhuman, show their humanity. Normal people with normal lives, with abnormal abilities and responsibilities.

Maybe way off base and may make no sense to most, but like I said, I can visualize what I like in a story and film, just hard to convey.

JD · Jun 23, 2012

YenChih Lin said:
JD, in this thread I wanted to focus on the movies, TV doesn't count, even if they had their fingers in it. It's the movies I feel DC could do better.

WTF? :confused

#1. You can't dictate how a thread will progress as things are discussed.

#2. Your thread title is more that ambiguous... if not somewhat misleading. What is DC Comics doing wrong? We could start talking about the 'new 52,' DC turning Clark Kent into a Peter Parker clone and we could talk even more about the new gay Green Lantern.

#3. Your original post asks "What do you think DC should, could or must do to be successful as Marvel?" doesn't limit the discussion to movies. Yes, the preceding paragraph talks about the Avengers, Iron Man, Batman, JLA and Superman but then goes off on a tangent about the new 52 and those costumes... so you're not even following your 'rules' for this thread. :facepalm

#4. I was addressing a person who replied in this thread and I think my reply was totally adequate given the conversation.

YenChih Lin · Jun 23, 2012

JD,
@ 1. I didn't dictate, I wanted to lay the focus on the movies, it's the movies I feel that DC/WB could do better.

@ 2. Ok, to be more specific: What are DC and WB doing wrong with their superhero movies, where Marvel suceeds at the moment? (I couldn't cram that in the title)

@ 3. see above for clarification

@ 4. Ahh, ok!

JD · Jun 23, 2012

YenChih Lin said:
JD,
@ 1. I didn't dictate, I wanted to lay the focus on the movies, it's the movies I feel that DC/WB could do better.

@ 2. Ok, to be more specific: What are DC and WB doing wrong with their superhero movies, where Marvel suceeds at the moment? (I couldn't cram that in the title)

@ 3. see above for clarification

@ 4. Ahh, ok!

You might want to start addressing other folks who have gone off your specific topic.

Better yet, start your own board or become a moderator so you can make sure everything is micromanaged to your discretion.

Scareb · Jun 24, 2012

The way I see it, DC is still stuck in that 1950's way of things. Their heroes are clean and wholesome and are the embodiment of goodness. Even with how they're being written now, you can still see it. Marvel has managed to make their character real and closer to what the everyday person can identify with. They're darker and grittier and suffer from the same problems regular people do.

People nowadays want dark and gritty. That's why batman does so well. Sadly of the main line DC heroes, he's really the only one.

DuneMuadDib · Jun 24, 2012

I wouldn't say they're very clean and wholesome. "Identity Crisis" will show you just how not 1950s DC has become. Admittedly I mostly read Bat-titles post New 52, but even Billy Batson is anything but a goody-good now. I'm actually fed up with the newer characterization of Superman from New 52 and Earth One because he's turned into a Batman-lite jerk.

YenChih Lin · Jun 24, 2012

What is your problem? Do you really want to push people's button on intend? I was just remarking and you are attacking me? :confused

JD said:
You might want to start addressing other folks who have gone off your specific topic.

Better yet, start your own board or become a moderator so you can make sure everything is micromanaged to your discretion.

cboath · Jun 24, 2012

RougeAvenger81 said:
I may be a bit opposite of what some are saying. So please, just hear my little rant. DC in my opinion as far as movies go can not be fully what the characters were originally. Marvel has made their movies bright, flashy, large scale, and they did it well with a lot of action. DC has started a good line with Chris Nolan in several ways, if more movie makers for other DC movies and the JLA would follow them. TDK is dark and it is gritty and edgy. However, it has deep meaning in the story. The story goes somewhere. And you can tell by the previews of TDK Rises that there is light in some way at the end of the story and although Batman is edgy and dark his values have still shown through.

Now translate Nolan's realistic style of filming and story over to the super powered heroes of DC. How do you make superman more real and relateable. One way I guess is to dumb down his powers just a bit so he does feel pain. Doesn't kill him but he feels pain.

My view is hard to explain. I can visualize it, but it's hard to convey. Create a large story that is deep, and emotional. That's where DC can go that Marvel hasn't so much. They have big action and large scenes. DC can be dark, but it can be full of emotion. A serious take on the super heroes and their lives.

Bring them together in some way that unites them in a serious story full of emotion, struggle and even heartache. Heck, for some of the lesser characters like in Marvel, throw 2-3 together as though they have been trying to come together and do what no one has. Have one of them sacrific and die to unite the rest? Far out, but just brainstorming.

Superman and Batman don't need reboots to do the JLA. Other characters need to be done first though. WW, Flash, GL even needs a reboot in a more serious tone before the JLA could be done right. Film it in a realistic style and with deeper meaning then a large action movie. And when they come together at the end or they finally unite at watchtower for the first time, don't have them in costume. Have them as Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent, Hal Jordan, Diana, etc. Although superhuman, show their humanity. Normal people with normal lives, with abnormal abilities and responsibilities.

Maybe way off base and may make no sense to most, but like I said, I can visualize what I like in a story and film, just hard to convey.

It's a good idea, and I don't think you're wrong. The problem is DC and whatever studios control the titles. Short of Nolan himself, who isn't the studios or DC, all they care about at the moment is cashing in and not doing a good story. Until the story becomes as important, or moreso, than the profit line, I don't see it happening. I believe the words from someone at DC were they wanted to get the JLA flick off the ground 'to cash in on the success of the avengers'.....

JD · Jun 24, 2012

YenChih Lin said:
What is your problem? Do you really want to push people's button on intend? I was just remarking and you are attacking me? :confused

Funny, I see it the other way around... I came here made a few comments that talked about the subject at hand and I get chastised and berated because the thread didn't do the way you intended to?!?

Someone stated that Marvel waited to get into the film making business. I corrected them - I further stated that they tried television and gave more examples. You whined that "TV didn't count" and you wanted to "focus on movies" - well, if you want threads to progress in a dictatorial fashion, I'd suggest starting your own board.

What is DC Comics doing wrong?

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