Alien: Covenant (Prometheus Sequel)

Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

If the movie were as good as those guys think it wouldn't require a half hour youtube synopsis to explain all of the things that are unclear or inconsistent.
That's exactly what I thought when I saw the length of the video, I liked the movie and didn't get to hung up on the plot holes. However I'm not a big Alien fan so I just enjoyed it as a stand alone film with some "tenuous" contact to the original. ;)
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

Damon Lindelof isn't a bad writer, but a pretentious writer who repeatedly explains in the commentary that he purposefully left questions unanswered for the sake of mystery.
See, the problem I have with it is that he's using it as an excuse. "Oh, we wanted that to be a mystery", but you can tell by the way he says it that inside, he's thinking "I have no freakin' idea".

The reason I have such a problem with it is because of the way I write my own stories. I have lots of mystery and unexplained stuff in there, too. But, as the author, I know all the secrets. There is no mystery that I don't know the answer to. By actually knowing what's going on, even if it's never explained, it helps create consistency around writing that mystery, and can even help the audience figure it out, since the rest of the story is obeying the rules of the mystery. The black goo is a perfect example.. if Ridley and Lindelhof had actually sat down and figured out what the stuff was and exactly how it worked, it would have helped every scene that involved the goo, since it would have been obeying those rules. That's one of the first things you learn when you start writing.. lay down everything about the universe you're creating, and stick to it.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

What kind of holes or unexplained are you talking about?

Why were the engineers running? What were they running from? Where did the rest go? Why do they want to kill us all of the sudden? Why was one engineer in hyper sleep yet none of the others? And then why didn't they return to earth 2000 years ago if that was their plan to begin with? What is the black goo really for? Creating life? Destroying it? A little of both? What was David's motivations to kill everyone? Glitch like the first Alien or was there some other "I'm better then my creator" type thing going on.

Some of these a kind of implied, however they are not explained. Most left completely out as if they forgot about it completely and just wanted to keep the movie going. And not nitpicking, but let's admit, this would have been the worst, most undisciplined crew full of reckless "scientists".
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

Ok, I must clarify again, I like the film. Visually amazing and I simply like the universe in which it was created. I don't need THE alien to show up. There is much more that can be explored. Who the Space Jockey was, where they came from or they could have explored why the ship crashed leading up to LV-426. Number of directions that can be done.

That being said I must agree with @Jedi2016. As a writer of ANY kind, if there is mystery to be had, you as the writer know the conclusion or reason behind that mystery. As you write the twists or direction of the story, if you begin to veer off subject or while re-reading it you can ask yourself, "Wait, why are they doing this again?" It helps you make corrections or changes to details that may or may not fit. I agree that his answer of, "we wanted it to be a mystery" is a cop out for the true answer. They didn't think that far ahead or review their own storyline.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

The following are my interpretations, and I will admit, I could very well be wrong.

Why were the engineers running? What were they running from? Where did the rest go?
Because something bad happened, possibly the outbreak of the black goo stuff (which explains why the head of the one who got decapitated by the door exploded). The others at the base also died (as we saw with the two guys that got lost), while the rest of the species were probably on another planet (as we've heard it theorized that where the Prometheus crew ended up was a base, not their home).

Why do they want to kill us all of the sudden?

Don't know. It could be that maybe they were trying to create the Xenomorphs and were going to use humans to do so (harking back to the deleted scene where Ripley finds Dallas and Brett after activating the self-destruct, and Ripley found Brett metamorphosed into an egg similar to the ones on the LV-426 derelict). I mean, the video I shared does have one point: the black goo doesn't really destroy things. It changes things. It changed the worm in the temple room, it changed Fifield, and it was slowly changing Holloway. Now, I know you're thinking, "If they wanted to create the Xenomorphs, then why is the derelict on LV-426 packed with eggs instead of goo containers?" Simple answer: The deleted scene (which was reinserted into the "Director's Cut" of the film), a Xenomorph could morph a host into an egg. We saw that the Space Jockey's chest appeared "to have exploded out." Lambert herself said, "What happened to the crew?" So, with that in mind, it's safe to say that most of the eggs we've seen may have been what used to be the crew, and that the creature that came out of the Space Jockey did to the ship's crew like Kane's Son did to Brett from the deleted scene.

Why was one engineer in hyper sleep yet none of the others? And then why didn't they return to earth 2000 years ago if that was their plan to begin with?

I took it as that he was being prepared to go to Earth with others as a part of the crew. But the outbreak happened in the base, so as a result, his ship never got launched, the rest of his crew ended up dead and he ended up being like Ripley in between the first two films, except with thousands of years going by. And the reason why they didn't return 2000 years ago is for the same reason: the ones who were going to go back to Earth died at the base with the outbreak.

What is the black goo really for? Creating life? Destroying it? A little of both?

As it seems to me, to create life by changing a previous organism, which fits into what we've seen of the Alien universe .

What was David's motivations to kill everyone? Glitch like the first Alien or was there some other "I'm better then my creator" type thing going on.

He has no motivation to kill anyone. He was given orders by Weyland to proceed with testing the goo after being informed that with what was found, the Engineers were dead (hence the "try harder" comment). And he pretty much interpreted Holloway's response to his question as permission to infect him. It was not a glitch like in Alien. It's not "I'm better than my creator." It's more like "I was given an order by my creator, and I have to follow it, because I do not have any free will like the humans who created me."

Some of these a kind of implied, however they are not explained. Most left completely out as if they forgot about it completely and just wanted to keep the movie going. And not nitpicking, but let's admit, this would have been the worst, most undisciplined crew full of reckless "scientists".

Even though I've shared my interpretations, do these things really need to be explained? What if they were purposefully left open to make the viewers think? The film seems more like thinking-man's sci-fi than a horror movie (Alien), war movie (Aliens), drama (Alien 3) or foreign film (Alien: Resurrection). Maybe Ridley Scott said to himself, "I'm not only NOT going to use the xenomorph from the previous films, I'm not going to use the same subcategory." These details pointed out could be his attempt at getting us to think. I'm glad you like the movie, but I just have to toss these possibilities out there, because maybe that was what the film was designed to be: something to get the viewers to think.
 
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Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

the whole point of a true prequel is it answer the ORIGINAL questions. IT DOES NOT ask you to watch a 30 min+ vid to explain the PLOT holes AFTER THE FACT!!!
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

the whole point of a true prequel is it answer the ORIGINAL questions. IT DOES NOT ask you to watch a 30 min+ vid to explain the PLOT holes AFTER THE FACT!!!

But you fail to understand something, funboy1013xx.... IT'S NOT A PREQUEL. Yes, it takes place before the events of the first film, but it has nothing to do with the Xenomorphs and their origins (as we've seen that the Engineers apparently worship a Xenomorph-like creature), and there is no direct involvement of the events in the film to Alien. In fact, Ridley Scott has stated in numerous interviews that at the point in which the events of this film takes place, the ship on LV-426 has been there for hundreds of years. That means that other than the Engineers and the company, it's just another story that takes place within the same universe, and has no direct tie-in to the events of the previous films. Basically, it's not a prequel. It's an original story set within the same universe. Much like how most of the works of Stephen King are a part of a multiverse that ties into his Dark Tower magna opus. There may be references to one another, but a majority of the time, there are many stories that are not directly influenced by another, while there are those that do (i.e. Doctor Sleep following an older Danny from The Shining). Or, more fitting, the works of H.P. Lovecraft, which often involve some of the same locations, references or situations, but mostly involved stories that had no direct connection to one another. There's a big difference.
 
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Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

But you fail to understand something, funboy1013xx.... IT'S NOT A PREQUEL. Yes, it takes place before the events of the first film, but it has nothing to do with the Xenomorphs and their origins (as we've seen that the Engineers apparently worship a Xenomorph-like creature), and there is no direct involvement of the events in the film to Alien. In fact, Ridley Scott has stated in numerous interviews that at the point in which the events of this film takes place, the ship on LV-426 has been there for hundreds of years. That means that other than the Engineers and the company, it's just another story that takes place within the same universe, and has no direct tie-in to the events of the previous films. Basically, it's not a prequel. It's an original story set within the same universe. Much like how most of the works of Stephen King are a part of a multiverse that ties into his Dark Tower magna opus. There may be references to one another, but a majority of the time, there are many stories that are not directly influenced by another, while there are those that do (i.e. Doctor Sleep following an older Danny from The Shining). Or, more fitting, the works of H.P. Lovecraft, which often involve some of the same locations, references or situations, but mostly involved stories that had no direct connection to one another. There's a big difference.

Too bad that line of reasoning doesn't mitigate the damaging aspects Prometheus introduced to the other movies. Why would anyone want to look at that Space Jockey and write it off as a suit worn by a human? Sure, that can come off as a surprise to alien fans, but it just dulls one of the strongest elements that made the original so good. The unknown is scary. The more you know, the more you see and the more you understand, the less scary it is. The mysteries in Prometheus aren't scary because it's a story that chooses not to make sense for no other reason than for the sake of it. ALIEN didn't open with a bald albino statue of liberty accidentally getting face hugged and watching him crash onto LV-426 before the main title appears.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

Too bad that line of reasoning doesn't mitigate the damaging aspects Prometheus introduced to the other movies. Why would anyone want to look at that Space Jockey and write it off as a suit worn by a human?

They're not human. No one said they were. They're humanoid at most, but not human (and if you actually see the scene where they analyze the blood, you can see that there is quite a big difference between the genetic structure shown, despite most of the parts that match). As for the suit thing, how can anyone look at it and assume it's how an alien would look? What if we ended up encountering an alien race in space. Wouldn't our space suit look alien to them?

Sure, that can come off as a surprise to alien fans, but it just dulls one of the strongest elements that made the original so good.

Does it really dull one of the strongest elements that made the original good? Or does it dull what you consider the strongest elements in the film, when in all reality despite the awe-inspiring moment, the Space Jockey is nothing more than a small detail in the bigger picture that is the story of the Nostromo crew?

The unknown is scary. The more you know, the more you see and the more you understand, the less scary it is. The mysteries in Prometheus aren't scary because it's a story that chooses not to make sense for no other reason than for the sake of it. ALIEN didn't open with a bald albino statue of liberty accidentally getting face hugged and watching him crash onto LV-426 before the main title appears.

The mysteries in Prometheus isn't suppose to be scary. And your point about "the more you see and the more you understand, the less scary it is," is the exact reason why not having the xenomorph in this film is a good thing: because we've already gotten too much of it to the point where they're not scary anymore (in fact, it's the same reason why the xenomorphs in anything before Alien: Isolation are lacking, because before that game was released, the xenomorphs featured in the games were all cannon fodder, basically something to kill and not to fear). Also, if Alien had that open with an albino statue of liberty getting a face hugger to the face and crash landing before the main title, it still wouldn't have diminished the original, because the original is not about the Space Jockey, it's about the crew of the Nostromo, the situation they're in and the things they do trying to get the alien off the ship, and their survival. An alternate opening that foreshadows things doesn't affect the events of the film.

Again, the Space Jockey scene, though awe-inspiring, is not relevant to the events that happen to the Nostromo crew other than being a bit of a foreshadow, it only serves that goal of being a foreshadow and then serves no more importance to the story after that. The Space Jockey was nothing more than a throw-away character. It doesn't matter how the Space Jockey looked, be it outside or inside, as long as the ship is on LV-426 and transmitting the warning, which ends up drawing the Nostromo to the planet and then getting one of the crew infected.

Would the plot have been affected if it had been a giant albino, a giant crustacean looking creature or even a giant freakin' turtle for that matter if it had been revealed in that scene in the first film? To me, no. Why? The first film is about the Nostromo crew, and the situation they were in. THAT is what makes the film great. The Space Jockey and the Alien are small details, memorable and awe-inspiring as they may be, but the film is not about them. You notice we never follow the Alien, only see it when it comes across the crew. Why? Because its the crew's story that's being told. THAT'S what makes the original great. That's also what makes Prometheus pretty damn good in my opinion, because its about the characters and the situation they're in.

One film does not diminish the other. If that were true, then there wouldn't be any other films after Alien 3 or Alien: Resurrection, or even after AVP: Alien vs. Predator (be it part one or part two) for that matter. If that were the case, then no one would bother watching any version of the original Star Wars trilogy (no matter what edit they are, including the original theatrical cut) after seeing the prequels if that were true. Prometheus is its own film that uses similar elements to Alien. It has no affect on the original film whatsoever. All it did was shown us a little bit more of what was basically a throw-away set piece, despite how amazing it looked.

But again, that's just my opinion. My reply is not intended to cause conflict. If it does, then I apologize greatly. I just meant this as a means to conversing about the films, despite the varying opinions about it.
 
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Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

they shouldn't have touched on anything from the original "alien" then. but they did. explain to me how the derelict ship crashes "exactly" how its found in alien, yet david says "i can fly the ship" to get them off the planet. the Prometheus crashes into it but no parts of the ship were found in "alien". the debris was massive. the warning beacon was set bye rapace that rypley listens to in alien yet the escape pod is never found and the signal needed to be translated? hundreds of years its been there?? that's one hell of a battery. plus the space jockey in "alien" had a chestburster in him, dallas says it exploded from inside. yet the "last" engineer dies in the escape pod. come on really? its not a prequel? :confused
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

they shouldn't have touched on anything from the original "alien" then. but they did. explain to me how the derelict ship crashes "exactly" how its found in alien, yet david says "i can fly the ship" to get them off the planet. the Prometheus crashes into it but no parts of the ship were found in "alien". the debris was massive. the warning beacon was set bye rapace that rypley listens to in alien yet the escape pod is never found and the signal needed to be translated? hundreds of years its been there?? that's one hell of a battery. plus the space jockey in "alien" had a chestburster in him, dallas says it exploded from inside. yet the "last" engineer dies in the escape pod. come on really? its not a prequel? :confused

Why is it the ship didn't crash exactly how it's found like Alien? Because it's not the same ship. As I've said before, Ridley Scott has stated in numerous interviews that at the point in which the events of Prometheus takes place, the ship on LV-426 has been there for hundreds of years. That means at the time of the events of Prometheus, the derelict ship on LV-426 is already there, waiting to be discovered by the Nostromo crew (decades after the events of Prometheus). The place they went to in Prometheus is not LV-426, it's LV-223. It's not the same place as in Alien. The crashed ship in that film is not the derelict from the first film and it's not even the same planet. They pointed that out in the film that LV-223 was where they were going early in the film.

There was no warning beacon set up by Shaw. What she sent was a last report, like how Ripley sent a last report about the destruction of the Nostromo. Both detailed the ship's destruction and the death of the crew members, the only difference is that Shaw's report does include a warning to make sure no one else came out to find the base. But, it was not the warning beacon, and definitely not the warning beacon from the first film that attracted the Nostromo to the derelict.

The way the last Engineer dies, and the birth of the Deacon is NOT how the Xenomorphs came to be. The Deacon, as pointed out by Scott himself, is a very distant cousin of the xenomorphs, created under a similar circumstance. It has no direct lineage to the xenomorphs featured in the Alien films. We've even covered this many times in the Prometheus discussion. It may look like a xenomorph, but it's not connected to those in the films. Think of animals, like dogs for example: there's many dogs, but there are many different breeds. Just because they're all dogs doesn't mean they're the same breed. You can tell the difference between a German Shepard and a Great Dane. The same is true with Deacon and the xenomorphs. And since the film is taking place on LV-223 and not LV-426, and that the derelict ship has already been on LV-426 for hundreds of years at the point in which Prometheus has taken place, the Engineer and the Deacon birthed are NOT the same ones as seen in the derelict in the first film. You understand?

Prometheus is not a prequel that is tied directly to Alien. What you see in Prometheus takes place in another place (LV-223) at another time (decades prior to the first film), well before and with no involvement with what happens to the Nostromo crew and the discovery of the ship on LV-426. I don't know how I can make that any clearer than I already have.
 
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Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

CB2001, I just want to say thanks for fighting the good fight on behalf of Prometheus, which I consider a masterpiece on the level of 2001, Lawrence of Arabia, and Alien. (BTW, for those who don't "get" Prometheus, it helps to have seen the aforementioned films.)

Anyway, one thing you said practically needs to be printed on DVDs as a "warning":

Prometheus is not a prequel that is tied directly to Alien. What you see in Prometheus takes place on another planet at another time, well before and with no involvement with what happens to the Nostromo crew and the discovery of the ship on LV-426. I don't know how I can make that any clearer
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

CB2001, I just want to say thanks for fighting the good fight on behalf of Prometheus, which I consider a masterpiece on the level of 2001, Lawrence of Arabia, and Alien. (BTW, for those who don't "get" Prometheus, it helps to have seen the aforementioned films.)

Anyway, one thing you said practically needs to be printed on DVDs as a "warning":

You're welcome ProfKSergeev. And thank you for the kinds words as well. :)
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

Well, I'd be ok to accept some of your explanation, however even in your interpretation you say, I don't know, Something bad happened, and how you see it. That's all good, but it's your view on how things played out. For most it wasn't explained. It leaves too much to simply say, "Something bad happened." Like another person said, the purpose of going back and answering a question, is to answer it, not inflict more questions beyond the mystery of the initial question.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

colliderfrosty: "Off camera asked Ridley Scott if the PROMETHEUS sequel will be his next project after THE MARTIAN. He said it could be."
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

Why is it the ship didn't crash exactly how it's found like Alien? Because it's not the same ship....

Yeah, it's definitely not the same ship or moon/planet.

I always figured the one from Alien on LV-426 could still be tied to the original event that caused the most of the engineers to die as we saw in Prometheus and maybe we will see that tie in used the sequels.

Perhaps the ship tried to take off around the time of the original mishap with an infected engineer and crashed on the other moon, or perhaps they went to investigate/rescue the ship crash on the other moon and instead brought back the infection/parasite which set off the events we see in the past with the engineers in Prometheus, but that's the only chance for a tie in.

Other than that everything that happens in "modern day" with the Prometheus crew was in a totally different place than the Nostromo crew
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

Yeah, it's definitely not the same ship or moon/planet.

I always figured the one from Alien on LV-426 could still be tied to the original event that caused the most of the engineers to die as we saw in Prometheus and maybe we will see that tie in used the sequels.

Perhaps the ship tried to take off around the time of the original mishap with an infected engineer and crashed on the other moon, or perhaps they went to investigate/rescue the ship crash on the other moon and instead brought back the infection/parasite which set off the events we see in the past with the engineers in Prometheus, but that's the only chance for a tie in.

Other than that everything that happens in "modern day" with the Prometheus crew was in a totally different place than the Nostromo crew

Exactly. You definitely nailed it.
 
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)

CB2001, I just want to say thanks for fighting the good fight on behalf of Prometheus, which I consider a masterpiece on the level of 2001, Lawrence of Arabia, and Alien. (BTW, for those who don't "get" Prometheus, it helps to have seen the aforementioned films.)


Hear, hear!
 
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