Alien: Covenant (Prometheus Sequel)

cratercritter said:

opcorn .....One big pop-corn movie coming right up.

opcornopcornopcornopcorn...... love seeing those dumb ass humans get their asses kicked.

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Think you hit on something there, all the movies after ALIENS it's the creatures that we start rooting for. LOL

JOATRASH FX said:

Well, to be fair he did it after stopping us from getting what we (or most of us I think) really wanted- NB's Alien 5. This film seems to take a lot of the unused ideas that have been thrown around since the 90's (like the scrapped Aliens in wheat fields idea from Alien 3). I'm open enough to the idea that it'll be better (or at least make more logical sense) than Prometheus, but I also still can't shake the feeling that this is a best-of mashup of Alien plus Aliens and that is turned out so only because NB's concept art got so much hype.

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I whole heartedly agree with this. As a practical effects guy, and just watched the making of aliens, I still am not thrilled about the CGI alien smiling at the camera at the end of the trailer. Granted I think it would work creating movement and stuff, but if its TOO fast, they will just motion blur it and it will look like a cartoon. Atmospherically though, I think it looks good. Im also a Danny Mcbride fan so hopefully he brings some laughs. So is Fassbender a different model of android?

Excuse the rant...

When I saw the trailer for Prometheus I was very exited. Unfortunately the only good thing about the movie was the trailer. The actual film was an utter mess. Actually embarrassing.

To me the Covenant trailer looks like garbage, as well. We have a typical fast moving Alien, that we are all very used to by now (the Alien didn't move fast, he was slow, otherworldly and creepy most of the time. He didn't do absurd lightning fast gymnastics through the air like a CGI superhero and wasn't so visible all the time. He was alien and nightmarish. He wasn't a ****ing lion). So we have that coupled with seemingly dim and unsuspecting victims on an illogical mission- let's send couples to space (why?) to a planet we've never been to, etc. It looks like the same old same old (as in "the same thing that has occurred in every Alien sequel"). We're asked to accept too many leaps of logic and accept too many tired cliches. The audiences are now treated like children (true of too many films now). From this trailer it looks like we're asked to accept a repackaging of the worst elements of the sequels. Film making didn't used to be this formulaic. It didn't used to pander to the dumbest audience members who only wanted the roller coaster ride and no story, no art. Yeah, we had some of that of course, but popular films- Jaws, Aliens, and countless others, weren't insulting to our intelligence. We didn't feel dumber having just watched them like we do with today's films (especially every Alien film since Aliens).

This is important- Alien (the film) was special and in virtually every aspect; the story, the characters, the tone, the menace/alien itself. It was totally the opposite of the films we see today - even films in the same franchise. There is nothing "horror" about the post-Alien Alien films. There is nothing alien (small "a"). There is no smart mystery. The only mysteries we have are "why are these characters acting so stupid", "why are there gaping plot holes", or "why am I wasting my time on this film obviously made for 12 year old audiences"? It's all too familiar. These films don't care about story or originality and only want some sudden shocks here and there, no matter how nonsensical (see Prometheus) or how boring and insulting to the audience (see every Alien film, including 'Vs Predator', since Aliens). I guess the corporations running things are too worried about the quick profit, word of mouth, and want films that are essentially the same as the last thing that came along with minor tweaks. It's all about a formula to them, no real (or no logical) story, sudden shocks, completely illogical actions by the characters, fast moving CGI overload, nothing that requires audience imagination, let alone intelligence or indulgence to accept something unique.

If you're going to try to reclaim your original idea, like Scott was supposedly doing with Prometheus and now Covenant, you might want to consider what worked about the original film (and insist on a good script).

Hopefully they will prove me very wrong and this film will somehow capture the spirit of the original Alien that has been missing since Alien. But judging by that trailer I'm not very hopeful.

Sean

Snikt said:

So is Fassbender a different model of android?

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Yes. Walter.

SpaceCrawler said:

Excuse the rant...This is important- Alien (the film) was special and in virtually every aspect; the story, the characters, the tone, the menace/alien itself. It was totally the opposite of the films we see today - even films in the same franchise. There is nothing "horror" about the post-Alien Alien films. There is nothing alien (small "a"). There is no smart mystery. The only mysteries we have are "why are these characters acting so stupid", "why are there gaping plot holes", or "why am I wasting my time on this film obviously made for 12 year old audiences"? Sean

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I think you give the original too much credit. A lot could be questioned about Alien.
- Not listening to Ripley regarding bringing the alien on board the ship.
- Blowing up the entire ship when they could have huddled into the lifeboat or sealed themselves off from the rest of the ship.
- Not detaching the cargo from the Nostromo before detonating the ship
- Going back for a cat
- Trying to square off against a hostile alien that they know nothing about rather than just locking down the ship or everyone getting in the lifeboat.
- Exploring the [engineer] ship. It was clearly alien and beyond the normal scope of work for the space truckers. Leave it for someone else (or for Weyland-Yutani to send colonists to their deaths by finding it).

I think the core of the stupidity in these movies lies in the lengths the company goes to get what they want.

Yes..... and not to mention, in the ALIEN (1979) movie, the part when the face hugger falls off Kane's face, then the face hugger was found dead.
I would think that these very intelligent Nostromo crew would have done some testing and an X-ray scan of Kane's abdomen area to see if there was anything inside him. I mean, that face hugger had a tube down his throat and was keeping him alive for some apparent reason. Surely, they should have checked that out.


In any case, ALIEN (1979) was overall a well made and great sci-fi movie with a cool creature, sets and actors. Any prequels and sequels can still be good or great as we saw in James Cameron's ALIENS despite the fact that the face huggers and alien creatures have all been seen before. They just got to get a good story, plot and good direction & characters/actors together to get the right mix and it can work out to be a great movie sometimes.

Father said:

I think you give the original too much credit. A lot could be questioned about Alien.
- Not listening to Ripley regarding bringing the alien on board the ship. They are blue collar guys, not scientists. Clearly not big on regulations, or heroics
- Blowing up the entire ship when they could have huddled into the lifeboat or sealed themselves off from the rest of the ship. They couldn't all fit in the shuttle or be sure the Alien couldn't burn through seals
- Not detaching the cargo from the Nostromo before detonating the ship What relevance is that? Screw the company's money, they set them up to die
- Going back for a cat She loved that cat!
- Exploring the [engineer] ship. It was clearly alien and beyond the normal scope of work for the space truckers. Leave it for someone else (or for Weyland-Yutani to send colonists to their deaths by finding it). - And lose their bonus

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I'd go back for my kittehs! Care about them far far more than some direct relatives I have I'll tell you that.

At that point I think there was an emotional imperative with her, gawdammit she was going to SAVE SOMEONE from that alien SOB!

Father said:

I think you give the original too much credit. A lot could be questioned about Alien.
- Not listening to Ripley regarding bringing the alien on board the ship.
- Blowing up the entire ship when they could have huddled into the lifeboat or sealed themselves off from the rest of the ship.
- Not detaching the cargo from the Nostromo before detonating the ship
- Going back for a cat
- Trying to square off against a hostile alien that they know nothing about rather than just locking down the ship or everyone getting in the lifeboat.
- Exploring the [engineer] ship. It was clearly alien and beyond the normal scope of work for the space truckers. Leave it for someone else (or for Weyland-Yutani to send colonists to their deaths by finding it).

I think the core of the stupidity in these movies lies in the lengths the company goes to get what they want.

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But all those "questions" have logical answers that actually lie in the movie itself. Unlike Prometheus or any other film the franchise.

1. They didn't know it was a deadly alien. Just some 'thing' on the guy's face. And the point was at least raised and outvoted by Ash, about not letting Kane on board (unlike Prometheus where the "brilliant scientist" takes off his helmet for no reason on a weird alien planet). And only Ash seemed to be in the loop about possible life on the planet. Now compare that to Prometheus' "scientists" choosing to believe a desire, faith, over facts and purposely exposing themselves to alien environments in spite of not knowing anything about them. The strangely large number of crashed Derelict ships (they do seem to crash a lot), the stupid, childish transformations after exposure to the black goo created only to shock but which made no sense, when exposure simply disintegrated the Engineers. The unexplained and completely boring hostility between father and daughter, the insanely dumb "scientists", the ultra angry Engineers who, despite being very advanced, seemed extraordinarily petty and hostile, the worms transforming into snakes after exposure to the goo when it disintegrates everyone else or kills humans, etc, etc, etc. None of which can be explained logically.

2. They had no idea where it was on the ship and couldn't catch/kill it. Also, see deleted scenes - they were facing a horrifying infestation and certain death. Compare that to Prometheus' endless nonsensical crap.

3. You're reaching. Really. You're dealing with a totally panicked crew, being picked off one by one by some horrifying demon nightmare thing. The last thing they are going to be thinking about is corporate profits and saving their cargo. These are just space truckers, after all. Not some military unit used to handling hostile alien species (or ANY alien species as far as we know at this point). They aren't James Bond. Why does everyone assume everyone can spontaneously become James Bond in any situation? Again, contrast that with everything in Prometheus. None of which has any logical explanation.

4. A display of humanity. If it was my cat I'd try to find it.

5. Again, a real reach and the question is illogical itself. Of course you'd try to exterminate a creature that invaded your ship, especially when your only option was to die by its hands or get on the small escape ship (with limited seating, 4 tubes?) and take a chance floating in the vastness of space well out of reach of civilization. Ripley was found in Aliens by sheer luck. And the ship being so vast it's hard to tell what they could "seal off" and remain safe. You're assuming a lot. Also, given the deleted scenes in the director's cut with the crew being turned into new eggs provides all the more reason to just get the Hell of Dodge and blow up the entire infested ship.

6. Ash and the corporation were behind the scenes to make sure they found out what this signal meant and get anything they could use, at the expense of the crew. The crew were required to go see what this beacon was. They found its source and took a look around. Not really illogical, especially considering it looked to be ancient and unoccupied. How many times do similar things happen in real life- you come across an old abandoned ruin in the woods while camping and take a look around. It's not illogical.

Again, you're pointing out things that have easy and logical explanations, unlike EVERYTHING from Prometheus.

Regarding your last point- that is one thing that is logical through all the films. All we have to do is look at today's world where corporations put profits over human health - fighting against regulations that ensure our safety, a clean environment, etc, and the "lengths the company goes to" to obtain what they want seem perfectly in line with a corrupt corporate aggressive and sociopathic form of "capitalism", which seems to be the backdrop of the Alien world.

Alien was by far a much better and smarter movie (and it wasn't particularly smart, just not profoundly dumb like Prometheus).

Sean

cratercritter said:

Yes..... and not to mention, in the ALIEN (1979) movie, the part when the face hugger falls off Kain's face, then the face hugger was found dead.
I would think that these very intelligent Nostromo crew would have done some testing and an X-ray scan of Kain's abdomen area to see if there was anything inside him. I mean, that face hugger had a tube down his throat and was keeping him alive for some apparent reason. Surely, they should have checked that out.

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You have to remember that all occurred in a short time span. He woke up, wanted to eat and - hello Alien. Also, big factor you seem to forget - Ash was directing events at that point and was in charge of all things medical. And he had a secret agenda to get the thing inside Kane back to the company - remember Ash turned off a monitor showing Kane's insides when Dallas (I think) entered the lab. So your point is answered, logically, in the movie itself.

cratercritter said:

In any case, ALIEN (1979) was overall a well made and great sci-fi movie with a cool creature, sets and actors. Any prequels and sequels can still be good or great as we saw in James Cameron's ALIENS despite the fact that the face huggers and alien creatures have all been seen before. They just got to get a good story, plot and good direction & characters/actors together to get the right mix and it can work out to be a great movie sometimes.

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Aliens was far removed from Prometheus or any other film in the franchise, quality-wise. Not as good as Alien, but not an absurd illogical Friday the 13th movie in space like all the others. Alien isn't Citizen Cane. It's not The Godfather. Hell, it's not even Jaws. But it's light years better than most stuff we see today, including Prometheus.

Sean

SpaceCrawler said:

You have to remember that all occurred in a short time span. He woke up, wanted to eat and - hello Alien. Also, big factor you seem to forget - Ash was directing events at that point and was in charge of all things medical. And he had a secret agenda to get the thing inside Kane back to the company - remember Ash turned off a monitor showing Kane's insides when Dallas (I think) entered the lab. So your point is answered, logically, in the movie itself.

Sean

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Nah.... I didn't forget. When the hugger fell off Kane, he did not suddenly wake up and go to the dinner table to eat. Quite some time had passed until Kane woke up. Dumb Dallas and others. Nevertheless, it is the way the movie makers wanted it to be....so many things that could have been different. Agree... the fact that Ash was protecting the Alien cargo affected things greatly. Ash turned off the monitor quickly when Ripley entered the science room. Interestingly, the image on the monitor just before Ash switched it off looked like an image of an embryo bird or lizard or similar......big eyes and little beak.

I wouldn't do a single thing differently in Alien. As already pointed out, the actions of the crew are entirely believable in the circumstances set up by the movie. One of the reasons it's a classic.

cratercritter said:

Nah.... I didn't forget. When the hugger fell off Kane, he did not suddenly wake up and go to the dinner table to eat. Quite some time had passed until Kane woke up. Dumb Dallas and others. Nevertheless, it is the way the movie makers wanted it to be....so many things that could have been different. Agree... the fact that Ash was protecting the Alien cargo affected things greatly. Ash turned off the monitor quickly when Ripley entered the science room. Interestingly, the image on the monitor just before Ash switched it off looked like an image of an embryo bird or lizard or similar......big eyes and little beak.

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cratercritter said:

Nah.... I didn't forget. When the hugger fell off Kane, he did not suddenly wake up and go to the dinner table to eat. Quite some time had passed until Kane woke up. Dumb Dallas and others. Nevertheless, it is the way the movie makers wanted it to be....so many things that could have been different. Agree... the fact that Ash was protecting the Alien cargo affected things greatly. Ash turned off the monitor quickly when Ripley entered the science room. Interestingly, the image on the monitor just before Ash switched it off looked like an image of an embryo bird or lizard or similar......big eyes and little beak.

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Yes, so again your concern was answered in the film (unlike the endless "WTF" moments from Prometheus that had no logical explanation and were just evidence of poor writing). Ash was protecting the Alien, Ash was in charge of medical/science (why would the crew question him?), they did scan Kane (Ash turned off monitor when other crew entered), etc. And Ash called Dallas when the facehugger fell off Kane, who immediately said he wanted to eat. Why would we assume "quite some time had passed"? Why does that make anyone "dumb", that Ash was manipulating events to hide something from the crew?

Reaching.

Again, none of the concerns raised about Alien are logical and they aren't anywhere near the level of moronic nonsense that was Prometheus or the childish "Friday the 13" type slasher garbage that was every other Alien film (besides Aliens).

Sean

Birdie said:

I wouldn't do a single thing differently in Alien. As already pointed out, the actions of the crew are entirely believable in the circumstances set up by the movie. One of the reasons it's a classic.

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Abolutey. The only beat for me that gives pause is they are a bit too cavalier when Kane wakes up and seem ready and willing to move on. But I also assume Ash gave him a clean bill of health and put everyone's fears to rest. Even Parker wanted to freeze Kane initially which was a great call and kudos to the film for putting forth that option.

Birdie said:

I wouldn't do a single thing differently in Alien. As already pointed out, the actions of the crew are entirely believable in the circumstances set up by the movie. One of the reasons it's a classic.

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Of course we all say this *now*... because we've made it a classic, and we love it.

But when i first saw it (in 1979) I still thought--like we do in most horror genre movies--"Why on earth are you doing *that* "? "Don't go in THERE!" That sort of thing.

The point is that our opinion of things changes greatly over time... it's inevitable. And there's no doubt that Alien has held up VERY well. But it didn't have legendary status when it was released. Things change.

SpaceCrawler said:

Yes, so again your concern was answered in the film (unlike the endless "WTF" moments from Prometheus that had no logical explanation and were just evidence of poor writing). Ash was protecting the Alien, Ash was in charge of medical/science (why would the crew question him?), they did scan Kane (Ash turned off monitor when other crew entered), etc. And Ash called Dallas when the facehugger fell off Kane, who immediately said he wanted to eat. Why would we assume "quite some time had passed"? Why does that make anyone "dumb", that Ash was manipulating events to hide something from the crew?

Reaching.

Again, none of the concerns raised about Alien are logical and they aren't anywhere near the level of moronic nonsense that was Prometheus or the childish "Friday the 13" type slasher garbage that was every other Alien film (besides Aliens).

Sean

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Not that I don't agree with you to a point, but the language of your statements lays plain your extraordinary bias against Prometheus (which is OK) and I fear you run the risk of coming across as too argumentative with the way that you aim to completely downplay others' observations.

Just *my* observation.

The Nostromo crew is not all blue collars. Obviously, there's a Captain, second officer in command, flight officer, science officer, etc...I would only say that Yaphet and Harry D. could wear the "blue collar" label more easily than the others. Ash is Hal from "2001 A Space Odyssey": clear mission and mandate, works hand in hand with "Muther" the main computer on board.
The mission and its success is simple: get to the surface, explore/investigate and come back with something, no matter what (human crew expendable). That's why Ash didn't respect the orders given to him by second officer Ripley(while Dallas, as Captain, should've known better than to ask to open the doors with a unknown "thing" attached to the face of one of his crew member:behave:rolleyes)

Ash is evasive with his knowledge/research of the Alien. He knows more than the crew will know and it shows throughout the movie (keeping the crew from killing the Alien after it emerges from Kane's body is one and his "detector" is no better at detecting clearly the creature while in the air ducts of the ship).

As for returning for the cat, in real life the cat is also expendable (go to the store and buy another one:facepalm).

Are we sure that Ripley was discovered by "sheer luck"? If I was Weyland-Yutani Corp, I would be pissed if my tug and its mining load had not arrived to port after...30 years!!
They send a search party (Marines, no less) toward the last position of the ship...and yes, it took them that long (they were,after all, far from our system when they were woken up by Muther).

The Marines didn't find Ripley. It was a deep space salvage team. Weyland had already been terra forming LV426 for decades. When Burke heard Ripley's story he sent the colonists out to investigate what she said. It was only once their communications were cut off did the Military get involved.