Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)
Yeah I love Prometheus too. Underrated it is.
Ben
Yeah I love Prometheus too. Underrated it is.
Ben
Alien: Covenant (Prometheus Sequel)
- Thread starter Mr Webber
- Start date
Chaank
Sr Member
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)
I was and am actually really surprised at the amount of Aliens fans who don't dig Prometheus. I fail to see anything that doesn't work and like the hobbit (which I actually find really hard to get into; which gets me into all sorts of trouble being a kiwi) haven't we gone into this expecting a multi movie deal? I have, I'm along for the ride and wont expect the full story till I see the full story. Having said that it's great to hear from people who like it too.
One other thing. I think the marketing for this and the next movies are playing a huge part. The viral vids and websites are, I think, going to be a larger part of more movies experience going forward. Hard to say where it is leading us but I think for a movie like this or say if 2001 (so glad that comparison was made) was made now, Kubrick would have employed the same vehicles to keep the film from having to rely on deus ex machina during the film. Seems to me that this is positive for big film especially once that require a little thought.
I was and am actually really surprised at the amount of Aliens fans who don't dig Prometheus. I fail to see anything that doesn't work and like the hobbit (which I actually find really hard to get into; which gets me into all sorts of trouble being a kiwi) haven't we gone into this expecting a multi movie deal? I have, I'm along for the ride and wont expect the full story till I see the full story. Having said that it's great to hear from people who like it too.
One other thing. I think the marketing for this and the next movies are playing a huge part. The viral vids and websites are, I think, going to be a larger part of more movies experience going forward. Hard to say where it is leading us but I think for a movie like this or say if 2001 (so glad that comparison was made) was made now, Kubrick would have employed the same vehicles to keep the film from having to rely on deus ex machina during the film. Seems to me that this is positive for big film especially once that require a little thought.
Father
Sr Member
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)
I don't think it's so much that Alien(s) fans don't like Prometheus. There's enough to like... although most of it is visual.
It's just people were expecting a coherent story with intelligent characters that do intelligent things and make intelligent decisions. And a backstory that didnt' create more questions than it answered. None of that was present in this movie.
As much as I don't like a lot of what played out in this movie I've watched it at least a dozen times and do enjoy it as a cool sci-fi movie.
I think people had high expectations since Ridley Scott was returning to continue what he started. What we got left people thinking "This guy has totally lost sight of what he created."
Add to that that the original fans have created their own version of the "Space Jockey" backstory in their minds. Dark Horse comics Aliens stories depicted the Space Jockey as something completely different... so when we got the "Engineers" it was like, "Wait, what? That's now how it's supposed to be".
I agree with you on the Hobbit. I just had this conversation yesterday. My thing with the Hobbit vs. LotR is I don't give a crap about any of the characters in the Hobbit. If they all died it wouldn't bother me. I have no attachment to any of them. LotR had cool, likeable characters that grew on me.
This is similar to Prometheus vs. Alien(s) in a way. There were some characters that were so stupid I cheered for their deaths. Others, like the ship's captain, I was like "That kind of sucks, he was cool". And still others I was like "Meh... whatever". Charlize Theron's (she hasn't looked that hot since Hancock IMHO) was good, but again, for her sheer inability to understand the physics of a giant ship rolling toward her and how to escape death, her demise was deserved.
Alien... the characters were all likeable enough you didn't really want them to die.
Aliens... the characters were all pretty cool and the only person you wanted to see die was Paul Reiser.
Regardless, I'm totally looking forward to seeing the next movie. If for no other reason than to see what kind of damage control he does based on the fan backlash from Prometheus.
I don't think it's so much that Alien(s) fans don't like Prometheus. There's enough to like... although most of it is visual.
It's just people were expecting a coherent story with intelligent characters that do intelligent things and make intelligent decisions. And a backstory that didnt' create more questions than it answered. None of that was present in this movie.
As much as I don't like a lot of what played out in this movie I've watched it at least a dozen times and do enjoy it as a cool sci-fi movie.
I think people had high expectations since Ridley Scott was returning to continue what he started. What we got left people thinking "This guy has totally lost sight of what he created."
Add to that that the original fans have created their own version of the "Space Jockey" backstory in their minds. Dark Horse comics Aliens stories depicted the Space Jockey as something completely different... so when we got the "Engineers" it was like, "Wait, what? That's now how it's supposed to be".
I agree with you on the Hobbit. I just had this conversation yesterday. My thing with the Hobbit vs. LotR is I don't give a crap about any of the characters in the Hobbit. If they all died it wouldn't bother me. I have no attachment to any of them. LotR had cool, likeable characters that grew on me.
This is similar to Prometheus vs. Alien(s) in a way. There were some characters that were so stupid I cheered for their deaths. Others, like the ship's captain, I was like "That kind of sucks, he was cool". And still others I was like "Meh... whatever". Charlize Theron's (she hasn't looked that hot since Hancock IMHO) was good, but again, for her sheer inability to understand the physics of a giant ship rolling toward her and how to escape death, her demise was deserved.
Alien... the characters were all likeable enough you didn't really want them to die.
Aliens... the characters were all pretty cool and the only person you wanted to see die was Paul Reiser.
Regardless, I'm totally looking forward to seeing the next movie. If for no other reason than to see what kind of damage control he does based on the fan backlash from Prometheus.
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)
Exactly. This is all we wanted. How can people call this movie a "masterpiece" without these key items?
Exactly. This is all we wanted. How can people call this movie a "masterpiece" without these key items?
hamsalad
Active Member
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)
I get the feeling that even with highly paid writers and directors that THINK they know what they are doing, it is likely that often with muddled films like Prometheus. They get lost in the details of ideas they want to put into the film, and lose track of the story they are trying to tell. This is why people don't like this movie: it fails as a story.
This is why much of what happens int he film comes off as senseless or irrational: the writer and the directer know what THEY are trying to do, they lose sight of what the audience is going to perceive. People who love this movie (and there are darn few of them) keep saying how it's so much deeper than it appears... but they then make it obvious they are just reading things into it that may not even actually be there.
I see this all the time when I'm called on to do script doctoring. Often , I have to point out to the original writer, "what are you actually trying to do here? Are you trying to include a laundry list of ideas, or are you trying to tell a story the audience will be able to follow?". References to Larry of the desert are all well and good, but you can't depend on the audience getting them to be able to understand what you're doing. As was said by another poster, THE MOVIE HAS TO STAND ON ITS OWN. If if seems senseless to you when you're watching it in the theater, then it's not working. IF you keep being jarred out of the 'reality' of the movie by things that don't make sense, then you've lost the suspension of disbelief that is essential to virtual reality of cinematic experience you're trying to create.
As has been pointed out, if you have to rely on research to figure out WHY people are doing things in this movie, you've failed as a story teller: it's like having to have subtitles or a voice over to make your story make any sense. In fact, that's basically what you'd have to do to fill the plot holes in this film, really. That's what that 'Q &A ' review posted earlier was essentially doing, and the fact that they made that in the first place proves them wrong: all that information should have been in the move as it was needed to make sense of what happened in the movie.
There's an old saying in the movie business: "If you want to send a message, use western union" . The point is that you don't give the message priority over the story: if your story doesn't make sense , then your message will be lost in the confusion. Don't make the audience 'give up'. that's a failure.
Prometheus is a failure , not a masterwork. Ridley should go back to his roots and try to make a movie, not a masterpiece.
I get the feeling that even with highly paid writers and directors that THINK they know what they are doing, it is likely that often with muddled films like Prometheus. They get lost in the details of ideas they want to put into the film, and lose track of the story they are trying to tell. This is why people don't like this movie: it fails as a story.
This is why much of what happens int he film comes off as senseless or irrational: the writer and the directer know what THEY are trying to do, they lose sight of what the audience is going to perceive. People who love this movie (and there are darn few of them) keep saying how it's so much deeper than it appears... but they then make it obvious they are just reading things into it that may not even actually be there.
I see this all the time when I'm called on to do script doctoring. Often , I have to point out to the original writer, "what are you actually trying to do here? Are you trying to include a laundry list of ideas, or are you trying to tell a story the audience will be able to follow?". References to Larry of the desert are all well and good, but you can't depend on the audience getting them to be able to understand what you're doing. As was said by another poster, THE MOVIE HAS TO STAND ON ITS OWN. If if seems senseless to you when you're watching it in the theater, then it's not working. IF you keep being jarred out of the 'reality' of the movie by things that don't make sense, then you've lost the suspension of disbelief that is essential to virtual reality of cinematic experience you're trying to create.
As has been pointed out, if you have to rely on research to figure out WHY people are doing things in this movie, you've failed as a story teller: it's like having to have subtitles or a voice over to make your story make any sense. In fact, that's basically what you'd have to do to fill the plot holes in this film, really. That's what that 'Q &A ' review posted earlier was essentially doing, and the fact that they made that in the first place proves them wrong: all that information should have been in the move as it was needed to make sense of what happened in the movie.
There's an old saying in the movie business: "If you want to send a message, use western union" . The point is that you don't give the message priority over the story: if your story doesn't make sense , then your message will be lost in the confusion. Don't make the audience 'give up'. that's a failure.
Prometheus is a failure , not a masterwork. Ridley should go back to his roots and try to make a movie, not a masterpiece.
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Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)
But a great deal of the interest in the movie comes from people making poor decisions and then dealing with the consequences. The one downfall I see to Prometheus is that is was HORRENDOUSLY edited. Just watching the few deleted scenes that were included with the Blu-ray explained a LOT of the motivations behind certain decisions and also gave a LOT more depth to the character. It pains me to think what else we missed, but the editor seemed determined to make motivations vague... and I don't know why.
Despite the poor editing, I think there IS a coherent story with flawed people who all have different motivations and many of whom make poor decisions that result in the tragedy of events that is this story... Not so unlike in the original ALIEN that EVERYONE agrees is a masterpiece... At the end of the day, it is the exact same thing; people with differing motivations making poor decisions.
But a great deal of the interest in the movie comes from people making poor decisions and then dealing with the consequences. The one downfall I see to Prometheus is that is was HORRENDOUSLY edited. Just watching the few deleted scenes that were included with the Blu-ray explained a LOT of the motivations behind certain decisions and also gave a LOT more depth to the character. It pains me to think what else we missed, but the editor seemed determined to make motivations vague... and I don't know why.
Despite the poor editing, I think there IS a coherent story with flawed people who all have different motivations and many of whom make poor decisions that result in the tragedy of events that is this story... Not so unlike in the original ALIEN that EVERYONE agrees is a masterpiece... At the end of the day, it is the exact same thing; people with differing motivations making poor decisions.
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)
At least we can agree on this Art, poor editing was definitely a factor.
The difference between Alien and Prometheus is character definition and narrative causality.
The characters in Alien are very clearly defined. They seem real. Without even having to say or show much. Every action the characters in Alien take follow in-line with their motivations and it all makes sense. Mistakes were made, and consequences ensued. This was a clear narrative. I don't ever remember walking away from Alien asking why? I knew who each character was and what their motives were. Ripley evolved and became our hero.
However in Prometheus, the characters actions have no clear motives, they seem arbitrary, or even contradictory to their archetypes. Does this make the character more complex or interesting. NO. It makes it confusing and frustrating for the viewer and creates needless mystery around the wrong things. I want to focus on the story at hand, not get side railed into the reasons why a certain character took illogical actions surrounding a tangent plot device that will have absolutely no payoff or bearing on the outcome of the main theme in the end. In Prometheus the narrative is convoluted. One action does not lead into the next plot point the way a clearly written narrative should.
Narratives need to be simple and meaningful. Every scene needs to have a reason for existing. At least some information that will advance the plot. And if there are narrative tangents then they need to be wrapped up so we can return to the main focus of the story. A narrative needs a beginning and an end, or at least if you are leaving it open to interpretation then leave us with one single question to ponder about the main theme and come to our own conclusions. The story surrounding it can be as complex as you want, The characters can be as complex as you want, but you need clearly defined characters and simple narrative causality to tell a true masterpiece story. Alien had all of this. Prometheus unfortunately did not.
At least we can agree on this Art, poor editing was definitely a factor.
The difference between Alien and Prometheus is character definition and narrative causality.
The characters in Alien are very clearly defined. They seem real. Without even having to say or show much. Every action the characters in Alien take follow in-line with their motivations and it all makes sense. Mistakes were made, and consequences ensued. This was a clear narrative. I don't ever remember walking away from Alien asking why? I knew who each character was and what their motives were. Ripley evolved and became our hero.
However in Prometheus, the characters actions have no clear motives, they seem arbitrary, or even contradictory to their archetypes. Does this make the character more complex or interesting. NO. It makes it confusing and frustrating for the viewer and creates needless mystery around the wrong things. I want to focus on the story at hand, not get side railed into the reasons why a certain character took illogical actions surrounding a tangent plot device that will have absolutely no payoff or bearing on the outcome of the main theme in the end. In Prometheus the narrative is convoluted. One action does not lead into the next plot point the way a clearly written narrative should.
Narratives need to be simple and meaningful. Every scene needs to have a reason for existing. At least some information that will advance the plot. And if there are narrative tangents then they need to be wrapped up so we can return to the main focus of the story. A narrative needs a beginning and an end, or at least if you are leaving it open to interpretation then leave us with one single question to ponder about the main theme and come to our own conclusions. The story surrounding it can be as complex as you want, The characters can be as complex as you want, but you need clearly defined characters and simple narrative causality to tell a true masterpiece story. Alien had all of this. Prometheus unfortunately did not.
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)
You guys know I am an absolutely unapologetic fan of Prometheus. I still think it was the best film I saw in 2012. However, I can't argue a single line of this. Maybe it is because I WANTED to like the film. Maybe it was because I read more into things than were there. As I said... the editing definitely left motivations unclear and often made foolhardy decisions seem to be nothing more than poor writing. The deleted scenes really did do a lot for me in that regard. It explained two of the weakest characters; Holloway and Milburn and actually made me sympathetic to both of them.
Still loved the movie. You hear that Jeyl? LOVED IT!
At least we can agree on this Art, poor editing was definitely a factor.
The difference between Alien and Prometheus is character definition and narrative causality.
The characters in Alien are very clearly defined. They seem real. Without even having to say or show much. Every action the characters in Alien take follow in-line with their motivations and it all makes sense. Mistakes were made, and consequences ensued. This was a clear narrative. I don't ever remember walking away from Alien asking why? I knew who each character was and what their motives were. Ripley evolved and became our hero.
However in Prometheus, the characters actions have no clear motives, they seem arbitrary, or even contradictory to their archetypes. Does this make the character more complex or interesting. NO. It makes it confusing and frustrating for the viewer and creates needless mystery around the wrong things. I want to focus on the story at hand, not get side railed into the reasons why a certain character took illogical actions surrounding a tangent plot device that will have absolutely no payoff or bearing on the outcome of the main theme in the end. In Prometheus the narrative is convoluted. One action does not lead into the next plot point the way a clearly written narrative should.
Narratives need to be simple and meaningful. Every scene needs to have a reason for existing. At least some information that will advance the plot. And if there are narrative tangents then they need to be wrapped up so we can return to the main focus of the story. A narrative needs a beginning and an end, or at least if you are leaving it open to interpretation then leave us with one single question to ponder about the main theme and come to our own conclusions. The story surrounding it can be as complex as you want, The characters can be as complex as you want, but you need clearly defined characters and simple narrative causality to tell a true masterpiece story. Alien had all of this. Prometheus unfortunately did not.
You guys know I am an absolutely unapologetic fan of Prometheus. I still think it was the best film I saw in 2012. However, I can't argue a single line of this. Maybe it is because I WANTED to like the film. Maybe it was because I read more into things than were there. As I said... the editing definitely left motivations unclear and often made foolhardy decisions seem to be nothing more than poor writing. The deleted scenes really did do a lot for me in that regard. It explained two of the weakest characters; Holloway and Milburn and actually made me sympathetic to both of them.
Still loved the movie. You hear that Jeyl? LOVED IT!
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Chaank
Sr Member
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)
I do think it is coherent. Like Art says,the cut was a shocker but it's all there. I have to say though, I don't think Ridley is a Kubrick and I think that might be part of the problem. He is trying to make a pretty epic series on a budget of action movie thoughts.
I do think it is coherent. Like Art says,the cut was a shocker but it's all there. I have to say though, I don't think Ridley is a Kubrick and I think that might be part of the problem. He is trying to make a pretty epic series on a budget of action movie thoughts.
ProfKSergeev
Sr Member
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)
You mean like Alien, where every character but Ripley makes the most intelligent decisions imaginable?
You mean like Alien, where every character but Ripley makes the most intelligent decisions imaginable?
CB2001
Master Member
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)
Excellent point, Prof.
It's safe to say that the films have characters making mistakes and dumb choices. If everyone was perfect in making choices in the films instead of making mistakes and dumb choices, then we wouldn't have most of the iconic moments from them. In fact, we wouldn't even have the events of the first film with Dallas choosing to ignore following the protocol to go down to LV-426 and discovered the derelict in the first place.
Excellent point, Prof.
It's safe to say that the films have characters making mistakes and dumb choices. If everyone was perfect in making choices in the films instead of making mistakes and dumb choices, then we wouldn't have most of the iconic moments from them. In fact, we wouldn't even have the events of the first film with Dallas choosing to ignore following the protocol to go down to LV-426 and discovered the derelict in the first place.
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ProfKSergeev
Sr Member
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)
Exactly. Without poor decision-making, every film would be five minutes long. For example:
"Hey, Charles Foster Kane, wanna go be raised by this weird banker dude instead of by your loving biological parents?"
"Hell no! That would be stupid!"
THE END
Exactly. Without poor decision-making, every film would be five minutes long. For example:
"Hey, Charles Foster Kane, wanna go be raised by this weird banker dude instead of by your loving biological parents?"
"Hell no! That would be stupid!"
THE END
CB2001
Master Member
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)
LOL! Exactly. For Alien, it'd be this:
"Hey, Dallas, what did Mother say?"
"Mother says there's a transmission of unknown origin. But I've decided we're not going to go."
"But what about the forfeiting our money by not doing going?"
"Screw the money. I didn't sign up to be an explorer, and neither did any of you. There's other jobs that pay more than this gig. Let's get back into the coolers."
THE END.
For Aliens:
"To Hadley's Hope: Hey, guys at the colony, do you mind being careful going out to the derelict space ship? The last time someone went out there, they got infected with an alien, which proceeded to kill a small crew in less than 24 hours."
"To: Burker, Carter J. Go screw yourself, we're not sending anyone out there due to the warning. Sincerely, the Colonists."
THE END.
LOL! Exactly. For Alien, it'd be this:
"Hey, Dallas, what did Mother say?"
"Mother says there's a transmission of unknown origin. But I've decided we're not going to go."
"But what about the forfeiting our money by not doing going?"
"Screw the money. I didn't sign up to be an explorer, and neither did any of you. There's other jobs that pay more than this gig. Let's get back into the coolers."
THE END.
For Aliens:
"To Hadley's Hope: Hey, guys at the colony, do you mind being careful going out to the derelict space ship? The last time someone went out there, they got infected with an alien, which proceeded to kill a small crew in less than 24 hours."
"To: Burker, Carter J. Go screw yourself, we're not sending anyone out there due to the warning. Sincerely, the Colonists."
THE END.
hamsalad
Active Member
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)
Well, what a lot of people love about ridley's movies is their sense of visual reality: the feeling you're actually there in a world he created, that it seems real. It's also why some compare him to kubrik, because that visual reality seems to have been a priority for him, too.
Well, what a lot of people love about ridley's movies is their sense of visual reality: the feeling you're actually there in a world he created, that it seems real. It's also why some compare him to kubrik, because that visual reality seems to have been a priority for him, too.
hamsalad
Active Member
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)
RIPLEY: when I signed up for this, you agreed that I wasn't going to go in with the troops. I'm staying right here in this ship. I'm not going down to the surface. Besides, it's stupid to leave this huge ship unmanned. I'll watch it on TV, thanks. Remember, I told you that this thing is way over your pay grade, so when it hits the fan, don't blame me.
(later)
(watches the mushroom cloud as the plant detonates)
Well, looks like they all bought the farm. Sucks to be them, but I warned them. Good thing I was a ships officer: I better get this thing on course for home.
THE END.
ALIEN:
DALLAS:
Well, this is clearly an ancient derelict, and there's clearly nothing alive here to rescue. We aren't archeologists, so let's head back and leave this find for the scientists to look at when they come back here. KANE! Get the hell away from that hole, you might fall in, and then who know what might happen to you? No, we are going back to the ship, we've done our job and that's the end of it.
CUT TO:
NOSTROMO LIFTING OFF
CUT TO:
EXT. SPACE
DALLAS (VO)
Boy that was one freaky planet. I wonder why ash tried to leave the ship without permission when we got back? Good thing we got him in the freezer before he did something stupid.
THE END
RIPLEY: when I signed up for this, you agreed that I wasn't going to go in with the troops. I'm staying right here in this ship. I'm not going down to the surface. Besides, it's stupid to leave this huge ship unmanned. I'll watch it on TV, thanks. Remember, I told you that this thing is way over your pay grade, so when it hits the fan, don't blame me.
(later)
(watches the mushroom cloud as the plant detonates)
Well, looks like they all bought the farm. Sucks to be them, but I warned them. Good thing I was a ships officer: I better get this thing on course for home.
THE END.
ALIEN:
DALLAS:
Well, this is clearly an ancient derelict, and there's clearly nothing alive here to rescue. We aren't archeologists, so let's head back and leave this find for the scientists to look at when they come back here. KANE! Get the hell away from that hole, you might fall in, and then who know what might happen to you? No, we are going back to the ship, we've done our job and that's the end of it.
CUT TO:
NOSTROMO LIFTING OFF
CUT TO:
EXT. SPACE
DALLAS (VO)
Boy that was one freaky planet. I wonder why ash tried to leave the ship without permission when we got back? Good thing we got him in the freezer before he did something stupid.
THE END
CB2001
Master Member
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)
LOL! I like those even better than mine, dude... You know, as crazy as it sounds, we should start a thread with "If Characters Made Smart Choices" and do short funny skits like these.
LOL! I like those even better than mine, dude... You know, as crazy as it sounds, we should start a thread with "If Characters Made Smart Choices" and do short funny skits like these.
blipper
Sr Member
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)
Oh come on, there's a world of difference between a bunch of wage-slave space truckers pressured to detour into a situation way above their heads and a no-expense spared expedition comprising field experts with *some* idea of what lay ahead.
If I were a betting man I know who I'd have my money on for which group *should* display more competence and initiative.
Oh come on, there's a world of difference between a bunch of wage-slave space truckers pressured to detour into a situation way above their heads and a no-expense spared expedition comprising field experts with *some* idea of what lay ahead.
If I were a betting man I know who I'd have my money on for which group *should* display more competence and initiative.
Ghadrack
Sr Member
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)
There was a horror movie a decade or so ago called Lost Souls, in the movie a demon / the devil was after the main character, so every time something weird started happening, you heard the screech of tires and the camera panned to car taillights as they got out of dodge. My friends and I howled with laughter every time. Obviously since they filmed a whole movie their attempts to escape were in vain but still, that was one movie where they at least feigned at the main characters not going into the murder hole or touching the toxic death goop, or hiding in the torture chamber..
There was a horror movie a decade or so ago called Lost Souls, in the movie a demon / the devil was after the main character, so every time something weird started happening, you heard the screech of tires and the camera panned to car taillights as they got out of dodge. My friends and I howled with laughter every time. Obviously since they filmed a whole movie their attempts to escape were in vain but still, that was one movie where they at least feigned at the main characters not going into the murder hole or touching the toxic death goop, or hiding in the torture chamber..
Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)
LOL, reminds me of this Geico commercial:
LOL, reminds me of this Geico commercial:
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Re: Paradise (Prometheus Sequel)
i really liked the film, but yes, the crew were remarkably retarded.
i really liked the film, but yes, the crew were remarkably retarded.
