Star Trek Into Darkness (Pre-release)

Immunity Syndrome.

Man McCoy and Spock are fighting over who is going out in the shuttlecraft on a suicide mission! To learn more what it is they are going up against in this massive new life form.
Kirk has to choose, the massive burden of command to pick which of his friends will die.

Different ep...
Kirk's risk speech is legendary.







Those are the moments that stand out most to me and I can stay on board through all kinds of action packed or entertaining plots or whatever silly stuff if they just throw me a bone and go back to the touchstones. Just touch the stone.

Explain just why the hell are they out there in the first place.

TNG hit up some great Trekkian touchstones too, and a villian (or was he really) was an instrument to help deliver the message.


Capt. Picard: I sincerely hope that this is the last time that I find myself here.
Q: You just don't get it, do you, Jean-Luc? The trial never ends. We wanted to see if you had the ability to expand your mind to new horizons. And for one brief moment, you did.
Capt. Picard: When I realized the paradox.
Q: Exactly. For that one fraction of a second, you were open to options you had never considered. *That* is the exploration that awaits you. Not mapping stars and studying nebula, but charting the unknown possibilities of existence.



Q: Perhaps maybe a little, uh, Hamlet?
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: Oh, I know Hamlet. And what he might say with irony, I say with conviction: "What a piece of work is man! How noble in reason! How infinite in faculty! In form, in moving, how express and admirable! In action, how like an angel! In apprehension, how like a god!"
Q: Surely, you don't see your species like that, do you?
Captain Jean-Luc Picard: I see us one day becoming that, Q. Is it that which concerns you?




Capt. Picard: I understand what you've done here, Q. But I think the lesson could have been learned without the loss of 18 members of my crew.
Q: If you can't take a little bloody nose, maybe you ought to go back home and crawl under your bed. It's not safe out here. It's wondrous, with treasures to satiate desires both subtle and gross. But it's not for the timid.
 
THE most important aspect of Trek is present by the end of the movie. Which I believe was the POINT of the movie. To put Kirk, Spock and McCoy on that bridge. And to a lesser extent the other members.

Kirk and McCoy quickly form the relationship we know and we get a different take on how Kirk and Spock meet but the essential bond is made.

Mission accomplished.

The rest is fanboy fantasies gone wild.
 
Now will Abrams attempt to engage some higher concepts next time and
actually live up to that mission statement in a meaningful way?

I'm open.

Or will it be the excitement over who will impersonate Ricardo Montalban?
 
Production design was always very much a part of Trek; from TOS to the 24th century. Would Spock still be Spock if he didn't have his bowl haircut and pointed ears? Would Uhura still be Uhura if she wasn't African?
But the look and feel of Star Trek was meticulously crafted over the years. The Star Trek universe is a place that has a certain feel to it due to it's look.

That still doesn't change the fact that in almost every Trek film (and every Trek TV show) has changed it's look and feel as the years went on.
When TMP was released we got an entirely new enterprise, new uniforms (or should i say unitards), new weapons, etc.
Hell, even the Klingons looked different (Head ridges anyone?)

TOS does not look like TNG. TNG does not look like Enterprise, etc.
Wrath of Khan did not look like TOS.
On a side note, WOK's structure and feel is entirely different than TOS.
WOK was an action packed revenge story....That in itself is very unlike TOS, and WOK is considered by many to be the best in the series.


Think of visiting a city like Paris, or New York or other places. They have a unique feel to them due to the way the city looks and the way the people look. You know you're there just by looking around. This does not mean that those are the only things a place has to offer... but the look of a place is all part of it.

Yes, I understand that. Im just pointing out that Trek has changed it's look several times in the past without complaints.
Paris and France don't constantly change their look.

The designs were just another slap in the face of fans. It was his way of separating from classic Trek which he felt had a kitschy, geek stigma. It was his way of telling people "This isn't your daddy's Trek." Any of the designs he felt were too close to the original were tossed out because he felt they were too close to the original.

Sorry, but I dont see that as being any different than changing the 1960's style TOS uniforms and designs to 1970's style of TMP, and then changing to the 80's style in WOK, and so forth.


But if you'd like a critique of the plot: it's childish, as though an 8 year old with access to Memory Alpha had written it. It lacks any type of moral or lesson, which Trek was built on.

I dont know about anyone else, but to me the film revolved around the moral message regarding Kirk and Spock solving their own personal issues and discovering how they could be a successful team if they worked together.

This is reinforced at the end of the film when old Spock speaks to young Spock.


The film showed their transformation from a rebellious punk (Kirk) into someone more responsible who is willing to make a sacrifice for a greater good.....And Spock, who needed to learn to control his emotions )so it wouldn't effect his judgement.


It's about a two dimensional villain with another doomsday device that was barely thought out.

I see this no different than the genesis device.
Keep in mind, I do agree that Nero was a two dimensional character....But then again, the only reason Khan was not a two dimensional character is because he had an entire TOS episode devoted to devolping his character and establishing the history between him and Kirk.


Had Space Seed never been filmed, Khan would have been no different than Nero.


It involves a completely different type of Kirk that gets put in command of the Federation's newest ship right out of the Academy.

Well, most people who are in their mid 30's are not the same person they were when they were in their mid 20''s...I know Im not.
It's also more believable to assume Kirk would not have been the same character considering his lack of discipline during his early years.
Since no previous Trek stories have shown us what Kirk was like in his 20's there really isn't anything to say he wasn't the way he was portrayed in the new film.

It basically dumbs down Trek for the casual movie viewer.

You still havent really addressed why it has been dumbed down.
You only pointed out that they changed the design and the look of Trek - Which is no different than what has happened in the past, and still doesn't explain how it dumbs the film down.
You also pointed out that the Red Matter was dumb...Even though the Genesis device was just as dumb.
You pointed out the moral message that Trek is known for, and I pointed out that the new film also has a moral message.



It tosses any real logic or science out the window to look or sound cool.

How does it toss science out the window?
Are you saying that a Time Gate made out of a round shaped rock is more scientifically accurate than going back in time through a wormhole?



The only part that fits with TOS is Spock's childhood and most of that was lifted right out of TAS. It's a vapid copy written by people that excel at making dumbed down action flicks for the public and one man that doesn't even like Star Trek but is a huge Star Wars fan... because if you were a kid liked Star Wars, you were cool. If you were a kid liked Star Trek, you were a geek.

And I counter your argument with what I've heard from people that actually liked it.

Well, the people Ive heard from did like it.
THen there's the other consensus such as the majority of critics , the majority of the general public, and the box office numbers which indicates that it was well recieved across all the demographics used to gauge the worth of a film.

The cast was hot.

And there wer'nt hot cast members in TOS?
I seem to remember scantly cllad girls in almost every TOS episode wearing a mini skirt and boots?

It was action packed.

And up until this film, WOK was the most action packed...And since then, the arguable favorite among fans.


Not one person has told me the plot was amazing... that the characters were compelling... that the set design and props were great. Not a single fan who liked the movie has said that they saw a movie that they'd consider to be like TOS.

Be that as it may...The people you have spoken to do not make up the mass majority.
 
Star Trek II was a little more than just "action packed."

At its core ST:II was about Kirk dealing with growing old. Believing that all the decisions he made in his time may have been mistakes, doubting his abilities after his failure with Khan's first attack.

However he still has a trick or two up his sleeve, and never loses hope.

He recalls his brash youth in which he made unconventional decisions in order to succeed (relishing beating the “no win” Kobayashi Maru test), and there after chose to live by the axiom, “The ends justify the means.” And he hypocritically teaches his students to understand the reason behind the very same test he himself cheated on and never truly learned.

He defeats Khan (with unconventional strategies- fighting on equal ground in the nebula), but his best friend dies as a result. And he questions his beliefs- the ends do not justify the means.

He finally understands what the point of the “no win” scenario was. He understands that he was cocky and arrogant in his youth, and never “grew up.” Now he has learned a hard lesson. He has a new lease on life, and will be living each day differently from here on. It is why when asked by McCoy how he feels, Kirk replies
“I feel young!”

Kirk has grown as a character.


All I got from ST ‘09 is that “the ends justify the means.” :rolleyes


But the special effects were really cool, weren't they.


Kevin
 
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Kirk has grown as a character. All I got from ST ‘09 is that “the ends justify the means.” :rolleyes

But the special effects were really cool, weren't they.

Kevin

Your post made a lot of sense until you tried to contrast The Wrath of Khan with Star Trek '09. You said Kirk didn't realize that the ends don't justify the means until that point in his life. Do you honestly think that Kirk is going to realize that in so early on in his life? It might take him the same amount of time to come to this realization as it did the original Kirk.

And to the very last part of your post: Yes, the special effects were awesome. :love
 
No,

I’m saying the moral behind ST:II (and Star Trek in general to me) is that we are supposed to be better than our primitive “me first” culture (the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one). These people are better than who we are today. It is something we can strive for and hope to one day achieve.

What I took from ST ‘09 is that it is okay to cheat, skirt rules and regulations, and do whatever it takes regardless of cost and consequences so long as the job gets done (after which you will be rewarded). Oh and violence solves everything.

That is not an advanced culture. That is still our primitive “me first” generation in Starfleet uniforms.

I also believe that this is the reason behind the movie’s success: moviegoers of today can relate to these characters because they are regular Joes like you or I. They have similar problems (prejudice, being held down by "The Man" etc), and they solve those problems in ways we would probably do today.

Again to me this is not Star Trek. If I want to just watch space battles I’ll watch Flash Gordon.


Kevin
 
To me, ST'09 was nothing more than an introduction. I enjoyed the movie a lot and agree with bits and bobs of both above arguments but I'm waiting for the next movie to see if they really have gone off at too much of a tangent from the Trek history we all know and love. Character wise, they done well with McCoy and on a lesser note, Spock but the others have still to prove themselves. One thing that did annoy me though was Chekov being on the Enterprise from day one. :unsure
 
All I got from ST ‘09 is that “the ends justify the means.” :rolleyes

Just because that's all you got from it doesn't mean that's all there is to it. :)

There is a massive moral to the JJTrek, and a completely appropriate one for an origin story for already beloved characters: "Be careful what you wish for; you just might get it."
 
I’m a fan of the original star trek movies and was very sceptical about the new one that I only went because the misses took me to see it. Well I absolutely loved it and think it is much better than any that was before it. Also people like my wife that hated the original stuff actually liked it very much as well. I can not wait for the new one.
 
I think something that sort of got missed in this timeline is the fact that Kirk was supposed to be a bookworm in his early days in the original Trek timeline. They don't really have any indication of him paying his dues learning the in's and outs of Star fleet, and the ship designs, etc... in the new Trek timeline.

They made it seem more sort of impulsive and dumb luck mixed with some natural skill than having the character really have some knowledge to draw from to make his decisions. I liked the new movie but thought that the Kirk character had been made really shallow compared to the character it was drawn from.
Well... he had a different childhood and didn't have his father to idolize to keep him at the books to learn all that. Now in this one he has Pike, who seems to becoming the new father figure... so he may hit the books and gain what he should have been from the beginning of that movie... he has a lot of catching up now.

He was just a smart punk-ass kid who was wasting his brains and his life, until Pike gives him that challenge to do better than his dad, who saved countless lives. Kirk lacked any motivation until that point... so it can go either way... he can waste it... or he can take it and make himself better. That's the possibilities there is with his character... he IS Kirk, but he's also NOT Kirk that we knew. The effects of environment and upbringing... a rather interesting psychological prospect to explore.
 
That's basically the whole premise of the new movie. Even IF he was put in the exact same situations as we've seen in the old movies, Kirk may not make the same decisions, because his experiences are different. There is a whole possibility to explore whether he'll in fact become the Kirk that we know... or whether he'll become his own. And Kirk may have the ghost of his alternate reality self haunting his steps and having doubts whether he's living up to that or maybe even idolizing that specter image he has of his other self, from what old Spock has told him.

Also... there could be a strange three-way relationship between Kirk and the two Spocks. The dynamic there is completely altered with the presence of old Spock... so that could be explored too... and Kirk may not form as strong a bond with young Spock because of it - it will definitely be different. If that is not explored, then that's an obvious character building plot dynamic completely wasted. It could also bring twists between young Spock and old Spock, because... of similar yet differing POVs due to age and experience, so again... an interesting psychological issue. How will young Spock deal with old Spock being part of his reality... they are again, the same, yet two very different people due to their experiences.

It really has possibilities to do things and deal with issues that are rarely possible in such movies.

THAT is indeed an exploration into the unknown.
 

I loved the other post he made where he commented on the music. This is honestly how I felt about the new movie's handling of Kirk as a character. He's not in this for exploration, he's not in this for adventure, and he's sure as heck isn't in this for broadening diplomatic relationships with other species. He went into this just to prove to some guy he could do it. There was never a moment where he expresses any understanding or interest in what the Federation does. Knowing this, it makes sense in the end that the monologue is given by prime-spock and not Kirk, because having Kirk say it here would be OUT OF CHARACTER.

Another example I use is that scene where he's looking at the Enterprise under construction. He's not a dreamer who looks up at the stars and wonders "what's up there?", he looks at an earth bound ship being constructed with the intent of making it his. This comes off more of a dream of possession than a dream of becoming a part of something much bigger than yourself.


I don't dislike this movie because it's "fun" or "watchable". I dislike this film because it's taking so many things for granted that it's not worth investing in. If these characters were anyone else besides the classic crew, I highly doubt they'd be as liked as they are now.
 
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He's not in this for exploration, he's not in this for adventure, and he's sure as heck isn't in this for broadening diplomatic relationships with other species. He went into this just to prove to some guy he could do it.



Interpreting Pike's dramatic impetus as being received by Kirk on merely a rebellious level is a surface-level reading of that interaction. When Pike instigates Kirk's journey, it probes a deeper motivation that carries him throughout the film.

It might not be as blatant a transformation as the one depicted for Spock, but it's still undeniably there. What does Pike use to jump-start Kirk? His father. What does Kirk do the minute Nero's threat returns? Connect the lightning storm phenomena with its last appearance ... when his father died. What's the first thing Kirk asks Spock prime about the other universe? Whether or not he had a father.

The greater themes of the movie are explored through Kirk's acceptance that even though he grew up without a father, his destiny remains unchanged. His path still lies before him. Letting go of the revenge-fueled pursuits allows him to transcend his unbalanced angst, unite with his reconciled opposite (Spock), and defeat the monster. (Nero.)
 
I don't dislike this movie because it's "fun" or "watchable". I dislike this film because it's taking so many things for granted that it's not worth investing in. If these characters were anyone else besides the classic crew, I highly doubt they'd be as liked as they are now.


Not many people take onion links seriously. Hats off to you ;)
 
Interpreting Pike's dramatic impetus as being received by Kirk on merely a rebellious level is a surface-level reading of that interaction.


agreed.

Kirk's initial motivation may have been at a basic rebellious level, but after joining Starfleet the film clearly shows that he eventually has invested more into it than just that.

Case in point - During the first few sequences where Kirk is in the acedemy it clearly shows that he's not really taking the academy seriously. He's constantly joking around, tossing about smart ass remarks, and has an egotistical sense that he can cruise right through training with no problem at all.
A key point is the part where he's in the middle of the Kobiashi Maru, and Uhura points out that they are surrounded by the Klingon fleet.
Kirk's sarcastic reply only seems to address the fact that she didn't call him "Captain".

Once Kirk is standing before Starfleet (In trouble for cheating) and Spock brings up Kirk's dad, you'll notice that his entire demeanor changes from that point forward in the film....
The smartass remarks, jokes and arrogance seems to drop significantly.

We see Kirk visibly disappointing that he will not be on the Enterprise for it's maiden voyage.

When Kirk finds out about Nero, who doesn't seem to care whether he passes starfleet or, whether he gets in trouble for sneaking on the Enterprise or whether he gets to command the Enterprise...His main priority has now shifted to saving the crew .
That initial rebellious motivation is now gone.

Later in the film, when Kirk assumes command of the ship, there's a scene referencing the Kobiashi Maru scenario.
Uhura says "I sure hope you know what you're doing..."Captain".

Kirk replies "So do I"

Instead of replying with a sarcastic and arrogant remark, for the first time in the film Kirk responds with an non arrogant answer, revealing that he isn't the "know it all" that he always thought he was.

I know that some here have a problem with the fact that Kirk is not the same character from the original series, but I believe that this reboot was intending to show how Kirk became the character in the original series. Which means there has to be a transition from one persona to another.
 
- when his father died.
- What's the first thing Kirk asks Spock prime about the other universe? Whether or not he had a father.
- The greater themes of the movie are explored through Kirk's acceptance that even though he grew up without a father, his destiny remains unchanged. His path still lies before him.

You see, I hated that element as well. Father this, father that. Where is his mother in all of this? She lived, didn't she? She was a star fleet officer as well. Wouldn't she be the one to tell Kirk these things about his own Dad since she practically knew the guy more than Pike did? But no, they decided to go with another gawddang father figure. And what that massive gathering to celebrate Kirk's promotion to captain?

Pike: Your father would be proud.

What the #&!) is his Mom?? Why isn't she at this ceremony telling Kirk this?

I know that some here have a problem with the fact that Kirk is not the same character from the original series, but I believe that this reboot was intending to show how Kirk became the character in the original series. Which means there has to be a transition from one persona to another.

Well, it would have been nice to have a scene with Kirk actually acknowledging that. There's never a scene with him where he reflects on how things have changed. Star Trek VI had that nice scene with both him and Spock discussing where they are now compared to how they started out. Spock with his arrogant assumption that Kirk should have gone on this diplomatic mission, and Kirk realizing that his prejudice towards all Klingons was unfounded after he met Gorkon. Sure, Kirk changes to some degree, but it still plays out like he still doesn't care.
 
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