Star Trek Into Darkness (Pre-release)

Jeyl said:
until these two universe manage to interact or show the original time line following the events of Romulas' destruction, I'm still not convinced.
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Right, that would require say Old Uhura or Old Sulu now visiting and interacting with the young crew while still being under the impression that Kirk grew up having a father.

Jeyl said:
Heck, I would argue that his giving aid is doing more to help keep the time line like it was than it would be if he did nothing. Why is Spock being labeled the one who acted like he traveled back in time and changed characters' lives intentionally when that is clearly not the case?
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Agreed, guess it's ignorance on Kirk's part or total oversight by the new writers.

Just saw the following bits about Star Trek Into Darkness on Twitter from people who are currently at Bad Robot, probably getting some presentation or footage preview.

Alice Eve's character is confirmed to be Carol Marcus. Part of the movie takes place on Klingon planet Qo'noS.
 
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DARTH SABER said:
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Yeah, that struck me as well.

It stretches believability with me that different accidents at different times and places in alternate universes would have the same incredibly unique result upon Gary Mitchell. Unless ya want to maintain that Gary was extremely susceptible to becoming a psychic god, and practically any accident was going to make it happen at some point in his life.
 
It's the the "Hitler Theorem" oh what ever they call it. Some events are set points in all continuums. The theory goes that someone goes back in time and kills Hitler as he's on his way to art school for his first day (yeah, he was an art student before the rest of it, don't **** off art students). The theory goes that with him gone someone else will fill his shoes for all the major events and all of it will still take place.

If Mitchell's short lived godhood is one such point then it stands to reason that all quantum vibrational varient universes in that multiverse that have a Mitchell will have him or someone like him, maybe John Harrison, have the same events.

Didn't Kirk yell "Hey Johnny!" when he zipped passed the other kid in the stolen Vette?
 
That is destiny, which to me is not a plausible concept, but hey, if that's the deal in this work of fiction, I guess I'll live with it...
 
NakedMoleRat said:
By that logic, The Doctor (Who that is) should forget who he is every time the TARDIS lands!
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Nahhh, the TARDIS protects and preserves the personal timelines of The Doctor and his companions. :p

CessnaDriver said:
And I am in love with the exploration of space Trek portrayed.
The five year mission. THE five year mission! The whole mission statement
at the beginning of the show should be driving everything from behind.
Why they are out there in the first place to meet hot alien chicks and fight monsters.
To explore, to seek out, to better ourselves through that grand trek to the stars.
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I agree, but so far in J.J.'s Trek universe Kirk and the crew haven't been assigned to the five year mission yet.
 
Jeyl said:
I am absolutely open to that possibility, but until these two universe manage to interact or show the original time line following the events of Romulas' destruction, I'm still not convinced. For one thing, Spock's dialogue explaining how Nero is from the future and how it connects to the alternate reality concept is not convincing at all. Yes, Nero is from the future, but how does that lead to "alternate reality"? There is no evidence.

And to be quite honest, Trek09 doesn't even know how to handle time travel dialogye.

Kirk: *To Spock* You travelled back in time. Changed all our lives.

No. Spock just got here. That was Nero who did all the changing.

Kirk: Going back in time, changing things. That's cheating.
Spock: A trick I learned from a friend.

No. This is not cheating. Spock arrived in a time line that has already been compromised and forever changed. There is no "changing" when nothing can be pre-determined. Heck, I would argue that his giving aid is doing more to help keep the time line like it was than it would be if he did nothing. Why is Spock being labeled the one who acted like he traveled back in time and changed characters' lives intentionally when that is clearly not the case?
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Sure, it's from the Trek novelverse , but author Christopher L. Bennett (who wrote the two Department of Temporal Investigations books) tried to explain how Trek 09 didn't overwrite the Prime history, but without directly mentioning it (because it takes place IN the Prime universe and they have no knowledge of NuTrek!) The following comes from his annotations:

"The discussion here is implicitly my explanation for how the alternate timeline established in the 2009 Star Trek feature film (ST'09) can coexist alongside the original timeline without eradicating it, even while other alternate timelines have been shown to replace the original one. Nero and Spock Prime made a one-way journey into the past, so there was no reciprocal exchange of matter, energy, or information. The "phase resonance" idea is a very simplified description of a concept derived from the Quantum Decoherence page at Quantum Decoherence. In the "Decoherence in an Ensemble of Particles" section at the end of the article, it discusses how interference (interaction) between quantum states (timelines) is represented by the "off-diagonal" terms in the probability density matrix representing the two combined states, and shows how those off-diagonal terms average out to zero, meaning that the two states go completely out of phase. This is another way of expressing what I discussed above about divergent timelines continuing to diverge further until they're completely isolated from one another.
My thinking here is that if you go back in time and create a new timeline, you "imprint" your own timeline's phase on it just a bit. As you breathe, as you shed skin and hair and leave oils on the things you touch, you leave particles from your own timeline behind in the new one even if you return afterward. So the new timeline retains a slight entanglement with the old one and the off-diagonal phase terms don't go completely to zero because of the extra particles. So because the wave equation of the altered timeline retains a slight echo of the equation of the original one, there are resonances that cause the equations to evolve similarly -- i.e. events can happen similarly, the same people can be born, etc. This could explain some of the extraordinary coincidences in ST'09. But if there's a mutual exchange, then both timelines' equations contain phase terms from the other, so the resonance is mutual and causes a reinforcing feedback loop that draws the two timelines together.
Keep in mind that this is fictional. The underlying idea is that, if any two things interact, they become part of the same quantum system (i.e. they become entangled) and must be treated as a unified whole. So if two timelines interact, they become a single quantum system and their fates are joined. This is where you run into a bit of a conundrum. On the one hand, quantum information theory says that if two timelines entangle, they functionally become one and must have a single measurement history, which argues that they would converge and that one would vanish in favor of the other. On the other hand, thermodynamics and particle physics say that it's all but impossible for two out-of-phase timelines to reconverge again. For the purposes of this novel, I resolve the contradiction by postulating "anti-time" as a negative-entropy fudge factor. In reality, I think the explanation is that quantum entanglement can be broken. Maybe if you went into another timeline, it would be entangled with your own for the duration of the interaction, but once the interaction ended, decoherence would set in and the two timelines would go their separate ways again. (And that's assuming that there even are multiple timelines at all, which I'm agnostic about.)
Now, the claim here is that spontaneously divergent timelines like the Mirror Universe are exempt from this collapse process, because they weren't imprinted with the other timeline's phase at the point of their creation. But why wouldn't the MU have been imprinted with the Prime Universe's phase, or vice-versa, during the various crossovers that have occurred? My idea is that it only works between two timelines that were in the same state when the crossover occurred, i.e. the crossover itself created the timeline split. In that case, the altered timeline is "imprinted" with phase information that can't cancel out completely. But if the MU or any other parallel timeline diverged spontaneously, it wouldn't have any such intrinsic imprint and would've already evolved into a rather different state by the time the interaction occurred, so the two timelines wouldn't link in the same way. It's not very well thought out, frankly, but it serves my purposes.

Previous works of Trek time-travel fiction had the characters expressing uncertainty about aspects of temporal physics, particularly the question of timeline survival, but Spock Prime in ST'09 (who came from 2387) showed no interest in attempting to "restore" his own history, suggesting he understood that it was unnecessary under the circumstances."

The book does a very good job detailing all the different ways time travel have occured in Trek and to rectify their apparent inconsistency. But what I gathered from Bennett's explanation was that there was no quantum entaglement to the prime universe because it was a one way trip. I think Voyager did more to confuse Trek time travel than any other trek show/movie anyways. I just always chalked it up to, in my mind, the method used to travel. Orb of Time has different reults that The Guardian of Forever, versus a transorter based accident versus Q interference versus slingshot around the sun, etc.

But ultimately, the people with whom Trek is now entrusted to say that the old timeline still exists, so I go with that. And I don't need them to show that in a new movie to justify it! :)
 
Worst case, just assume that Q did it. He likes Picard the way he is, so he'd ensure that the Prime Universe persisted so Jean-Luc would remain.

Pure fan-wank, but no worse than some of Braga's writing :D
 
...The character will be seen as a bald humanoid but with some kind of technology built into his head. It wasn’t entirely clear, but it is possible that he could be an android or possibly a human with technological enhancements.​
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I'm starting to wonder if this is going to just be a big old mess....or if this is going to be Where No Man has gone before, and they actually attach Carol Marcus as the girl that Kirk "almost married" as mentioned in the original episode....
 
tgreco said:
I'm starting to wonder if this is going to just be a big old mess....or if this is going to be Where No Man has gone before, and they actually attach Carol Marcus as the girl that Kirk "almost married" as mentioned in the original episode....
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That's what I was thinking as well. Then she can be Carol Marcus and he can still be Mitchell.
 
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