Damn, I love Olenna Tyrell. She's the Betty White of the GoT universe. Old. Sassy. Inappropriate. Gives precisely zero fudges.
Game of Thrones
- Thread starter Husker75
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Laspector
Master Member
For some reason, I have never watched any of this show. I've just about watched everything on Netflix I care to watch and so I picked up season one on Blu-ray the other day. Only a few episodes in but I am liking it so far.
I guess I've got a lot of binge watching to do to catch up with you guys.
I guess I've got a lot of binge watching to do to catch up with you guys.
SmilingOtter
Master Member
That was a heck of a finale. The Sept didn't surprise me, although Margaery buying it did. (Shouldn't have, but did.)
Tommen surprised me, though kind of understandable.
Walder Frey's fate was well earned, but I also liked Jaime's putting him down, dropping the mic and walking off.
Loved the scene in Dorne, loved Lady Mormont shaming the Northern lords.
Fine, fine episode.
Tommen surprised me, though kind of understandable.
Walder Frey's fate was well earned, but I also liked Jaime's putting him down, dropping the mic and walking off.
Loved the scene in Dorne, loved Lady Mormont shaming the Northern lords.
Fine, fine episode.
Monkey67
Sr Member
I Can't get enough of lady Mormont verbally smacking people around.
It was sad to see Margery go out like that. Doubt she would have gotten far enough away from the explosion in time. Yet atleast she was smart enough to see something wasn't right. Sparrow and the pumpkin carvers are finally gone..yay.
I thought Jamie was gonna kill the Frey house. Yet surprise it's your favorite little ninja. So that was cool trick.
nice to see the sand snakes finally show up again.
It was sad to see Margery go out like that. Doubt she would have gotten far enough away from the explosion in time. Yet atleast she was smart enough to see something wasn't right. Sparrow and the pumpkin carvers are finally gone..yay.
I thought Jamie was gonna kill the Frey house. Yet surprise it's your favorite little ninja. So that was cool trick.
nice to see the sand snakes finally show up again.
Solo4114
Master Member
So...
1. Solo -- you nailed it! Deathbed promise!!!
2. What's next for Queen Cersei "Guy Fawkes" Lannister?
1. I do so love being right. But really, it's been heavily hinted at for a while. What I'd love to get is a breakdown by lip-readers of what Lyanna actually says to Ned that we couldn't hear.
2. As for Cersei...she will rule...briefly. And she will die at the hands of the valonqar. Which means that either Tyrion will kill her, or...more likely...Jaime will. And will then probably kill himself. Or allow himself to be killed. Possibly by Brienne. I dunno. But I think their relationship will be......strained from here on out. And I think Cersei will prove a truly abysmal ruler.
But really, it's been heavily hinted at for a while. What I'd love to get is a breakdown by lip-readers of what Lyanna actually says to Ned that we couldn't hear. 2. As for Cersei...she will rule...briefly. And she will die at the hands of the valonqar. Which means that either Tyrion will kill her, or...more likely...Jaime will. And will then probably kill himself. Or allow himself to be killed. Possibly by Brienne. I dunno. But I think their relationship will be......strained from here on out. And I think Cersei will prove a truly abysmal ruler.
Yeah, that threw me, too. It just seemed unnecessarily abrupt and done purely to get that last shot of him on the ship with Dany and the rest of her crew. But, whatevs. I'm not losing sleep over it.
I love her, too, but she didn't really sell me on the emotional impact of the Septsplosion for her. Her line is ended, unless the Tyrells have a distant "Cousin Matthew" who can take over the house. Or a ******* lying around who could be legitimized. But anyway, she's lost everything at this point, and all she does is sass the Sand Snakes. It just didn't sell the moment. I recognize there was a LOT of ground to cover (mostly because they seemed to waste a lot of time in other plots this season...), but yeah. Not quite as satisfying as I'd have hoped.
I knew Tommen was gonna jump when they didn't cut away from the window and kept the frame locked on it. Didn't think he'd just faceplant out of it, but knew he was gonna jump. It's like in a horror movie when they cut really close to one of the obvious dead-kids-walking, and you KNOW they're gonna turn around and there'll be the killer just popping into frame.
I liked the adaptation of the Manderly plot with "the late Lord Frey." Nice to see them make use of that at least. I didn't quite get whether we should've seen something in the meat pie, though. Like, were we supposed to see a tooth or some recognizably human part? Because I must've missed it if we were.
Anyway, on the one hand, great episode that sets up bunches of interesting plotlines going forward. But on the other hand, a bit disappointing in that I just didn't feel like the conclusions really landed this season. Epic confrontations or wrapups of plot threads just kind of...happened. We weren't given enough time to really dwell on them or to allow them to sink in or explore their consequences. In that respect, I think the writing this season has been a lot weaker and -- and I'm amazed I'm about to say this -- I kind of wish that we had Martin writing them because he'd spool things out in a way that makes more narrative sense and gives a more emotionally satisfying conclusion.
Here's the thing. You have several plotlines that have dragged on needlessly over the past 3-4 seasons. These include, in no particular order, (1) Arya's Faceless Man training; (2) Dany's Mereenese misadventure; (3) Ramsay Bolton being a real ******* to everyone, especially Theon; (4) Littlefinger's machinations; (5) Mountainstein; (6) Dorne.
And while we do basically get conclusions to these stories this season, for me, they just felt almost perfunctory. Like, if you told someone the story of the season, for example, it'd go like this.
"So what happened finally with Ramsay Bolton? He was such an evil jerkface."
"Oh, well, there was this big battle, and Jon fought him and came within a hair's breadth of losing, but then the cavalry arrived and saved them. And then Sansa had Ramsay fed to his dogs."
"Huh. Ok."
Like, that's basically been my response to a lot of the stuff that's happened this season, emotionally speaking. While I recognize the significance for plot purposes, and am excited about that, it's plot without impact. Plot without emotional content. "STUFF HAPPENED!" is basically the reaction, which is good, because for a while stuff wasn't happening. But when it finally happened, it just...you know....happened. We don't explore the real impact of it, because there's so much other crap to deal with, because the lead in took FOREVER.
I get that the "house style" of this show is to basically lay out pieces on the floor for about 80% of the season, and then take the remaining 20% and do rapid-fire explosive finales, but this season felt the most unbalanced to me in that respect, and where -- while some of the most important things were happening -- none of the emotional impact of them really was effectively handled. And I think that's because the characters themselves haven't been allowed to reflect upon the importance of any of this, especially not in the moment.
Think back to The Watchers on the Wall. That was an AMAZING episode. Fantastic set-piece battles, but we also saw the aftermath immediately at the end, with Jon recognizing that he couldn't win even if he'd managed to win this one fight. We also saw smaller vignettes in that battle with real emotional impact. Jon's friends cut down or sacrificing themselves. Sam finding inner courage and fighting. Olly getting revenge for the death of his parents and fighting on when older men quavered. Jon facing Ygritte and saying farewell to her. That's big emotional stuff! Compare that to the Battle of the Bastards. The battle itself was just hopelessness and chaos for most of it (and stupid, stupid tactics). It felt like it dragged on for me. The rhythm of it wasn't satisfying for me. And the aftermath, while somewhat satisfying, was all too brief. Sansa feeds Ramsay to his hounds (mastiffs, actually, but whatever), and walks away smiling.
Again, much of it just feels...perfunctory. Like checking a box off of a list. I hope next season is a bit better paced in this regard. I don't need massive action every step of the way, but I can't help but be amazed at how one season with the purple wedding in the MIDDLE of it, and Watchers on the Wall at the end of it, was so much more satisfying than this season where HOLY CRAP a ton of important stuff happened!
So, as much as I lament how drawn out Martin makes his plotlines, I can't help but think that he's also going to have them wrap up in a much more satisfying fashion than just "Then this happened, and that happened, and bim bam boom, there's yer ending."
Westies14
Master Member
I think this is kind of the unique voice/style of GRRM's world. I don't always like it, but it certainly keeps me on my toes as it sort of defies traditional western storytelling. There was a line in the books (as reported by my wife; I've only seen the show) about people really just being "meat," and in the end that's how many of the characters are treated. The drama is what happens between point A (birth) and B (death), and there's no promise of duration for that drama or of B containing any inherent drama of its own. That pattern arrived early on, when Ned lost his head. Rob Stark's murder. Stannis' death. Renley's. They all cut the thread of a promised narrative unexpectedly, and unsatisfyingly in a direct way. Sometimes these deaths reflect on those who survive them - Stannis' death meant something to Brienne; Jamie returned home to discover the aftermath of the massacre he'd once broken a sacred oath to prevent - this time around, committed by the only person he loves in the world. It's like we can't have expectations for any thread. When one we've been following is snipped, we need to look around to see where its color is reflected and continues in that way. This is certainly unusual and defies my deeply-ingrained expectations. While it wasn't perfect by a long shot, overall this is the first season I've enjoyed in a while.
Riceball
Master Member
That's what I thought too, he must have hopped on either a very fast boat or they secretly have planes in the GoT universe.
asalaw
Sr Member
I found it very emotionally satisying, but that's just me. YMMV.
Yes, Arya served Walder... um... finger food.
Don't forget, Dorne is a long-ass sail from Mereen, so quite some time has to have gone by between Varys' leaving Mereen and his showing up in Dorne. Olenna is wearing black, so the news about her family reached her at Highgarden, and some time after that she made the trip to Dorne. So by then, her grief has had time to transition to anger, where it's probably going to stay.
At the meeting, Varys' job is to persuade Olenna to bankroll around 6.02 x 10^23 Dornish ships (give or take a couple of planks), which (assuming they're already built), then had to sail to Mereen with Varys on board. Then there's the outfitting of the ships into the Dragon Fleet. How long does it take to refurbish 1,000 ships?
Being conservative, that's gotta be six months between the time Varys leaves Mereen and the time the Dragon Fleet does, maybe even a year. Plenty of time for all that stuff we saw to have happened. Maybe a subtitle saying "One Year Later" would've been a good idea.
Don't forget, Dorne is a long-ass sail from Mereen, so quite some time has to have gone by between Varys' leaving Mereen and his showing up in Dorne. Olenna is wearing black, so the news about her family reached her at Highgarden, and some time after that she made the trip to Dorne. So by then, her grief has had time to transition to anger, where it's probably going to stay.
At the meeting, Varys' job is to persuade Olenna to bankroll around 6.02 x 10^23 Dornish ships (give or take a couple of planks), which (assuming they're already built), then had to sail to Mereen with Varys on board. Then there's the outfitting of the ships into the Dragon Fleet. How long does it take to refurbish 1,000 ships?
Being conservative, that's gotta be six months between the time Varys leaves Mereen and the time the Dragon Fleet does, maybe even a year. Plenty of time for all that stuff we saw to have happened. Maybe a subtitle saying "One Year Later" would've been a good idea.
Riceball
Master Member
Although I did enjoy this finale, I do agree with Solo overall, they really wasted far too much of this season with setup and waited until the final 2 episodes of this season to wrap things up finally. I understand and appreciate setting things up but there comes a point where you have to start resolving things, otherwise it tends to get rushed because you've spent so much time setting things up that you've run short on time to resolve things properly so you end up rushing the conclusion. I can't help to wonder though, how much of this, this season, was a result of book 6 not being out yet, I wonder if the writers were really dragging their feet this time in hopes that book 6 would be out in time before the end of the season to use at least some of it.
As for this episode itself, despite its hurried and rushed plot lines it was still very satisfying. I loved Arya's part in it, very satisfying to see another SoB character buy it and at the hands of one of our heroes to. Then there's the Lady Mormont, that kid does a very good job in the role and if she were real person, I'd follow her into battle even though she's only an 8 year old girl, she's got more guts and balls than many of other lords in the North.
Speaking of the Lady Mormont, I forgot, whose daughter is she? Is she an oopsie of the Bear's or is she Ser Jorah's daughter?
As for this episode itself, despite its hurried and rushed plot lines it was still very satisfying. I loved Arya's part in it, very satisfying to see another SoB character buy it and at the hands of one of our heroes to. Then there's the Lady Mormont, that kid does a very good job in the role and if she were real person, I'd follow her into battle even though she's only an 8 year old girl, she's got more guts and balls than many of other lords in the North.
Speaking of the Lady Mormont, I forgot, whose daughter is she? Is she an oopsie of the Bear's or is she Ser Jorah's daughter?
asalaw
Sr Member
Neither. According to this wiki page, Alysane Mormont is the neice of Jeor Mormont (the late Lord Commander), and first cousin to the soon-to-be-late Jorah.
She's the daughter of Jeor's sister, Lady Maege Mormont. Her elder sister and heir to Bear Island after Jeor's death was Dacey Mormont, but she died at the Red Wedding from an acute case of stabby murder death.
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Reelo
Sr Member
She is the niece of the deceased Lord Commander Jeor Mormont of the Night's Watch and first cousin of Ser Friendzone, Jorah Mormont.
She is the daughter of Maege Mormont. After her mother's older brother Jeor joined the Night's Watch and his only son Jorah fled to Essos to avoid a death sentence by Lord Eddard Stark for selling poachers into slavery to fund his wife's expensive tastes, Maege Mormont became Lady of Bear Island. When Maege left to fight in the War of the Five Kings under Robb Stark, Lyanna ruled Bear Island in her mother's stead, eventually taking Maege's place upon her death.
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An excellent finale to another great season. All the major players got screen time. Quite a feat to pull that off in a single hr and make it work. The last two episodes were really well done. Hats off to all involved!
Solo4114
Master Member
To be clear, I don't expect the moment itself to be anything but brief. And it's not so much about denied expected narratives as much as it is allowing a moment to land, so to speak. By that, I mean to allow the consequences of a dramatic moment to resonate with the characters themselves.
Ned's death wasn't just brushed past immediately. To the contrary, it set off the War of the Five Kings, plunged the Stark house into a diaspora, and destroyed the lives of everyone involved on the Stark side (although some managed to rebuild their lives). We saw how the world responded to Ned's death, even if Ned himself wasn't allowed to be the "good guy" who wins the day through honor and duty. So, the narrative trope is subverted, but the actions happen in a context and that context is shown to the audience.
Compare that to the death of any mook of a character in the show. Or the death of a redshirt on Star Trek. We don't care about the death itself, except insofar as it creates a general context of "it's dangerous here." We feel no emotional impact to the loss of ensign whatshisname any more than we feel an emotional impact for the farmer that the Hound killed. He's just some mook who died. Big deal. Life is hard in these environments, and people die. Their deaths do not really resonate much beyond that.
Ultimately, I think the issue is that the importance of the big events this episode is all conceptual for the audience, and isn't allowed (yet) to resonate in the show. There's an attitude in writing and especially in film that you should strive to "show" not "tell." This means more than just literally depicting events for your audience, though. As I understand it, the reason behind the axiom is that you want to create a narrative that allows your audience to personally experience the importance of events, especially the emotional aspect of those events. By letting your audience do that, the events themselves become more important and the narrative is more organic and feels like a more fully realized tale. That's not to say you don't subvert expectations here or there, especially when you upend tropes. But there's a difference between upending a trope (e.g. heroic knight saves the day---oops! Just kidding. Heroic knight gets beheaded.) and simply not allowing your narrative room to breathe.
This season especially, the show felt very much like one that wanted to "tell" us its moments. Sure, we actually see them (it being a visual medium), but it doesn't let the audience fully experience -- especially on an emotional level -- the importance of these developments, because each development is immediately superseded by the next development. Bambambambambam from one thing to the next. This robs each individual moment -- all of which are HUGE -- of their true impact. Here's a thing that happened. And another. And another. And another. But because all the things happened so close together, and because so much time was spent on the build-up, each individual hugely important thing just kind of meshes together in one chaotic blob of "BIG STUFF WOW."
I can still put 2 + 2 together to figure out what could happen next and why/how this stuff is all important, but that's all happening in my head and not on the show. The show is "telling" me that blowing up the Sept of Baelor was a big deal, but I'm not really getting to see the fallout from it. How the people respond, how the nobles respond, how people now react to Cersei, what's happened to the Faith Militant, etc. I just see folks milling around blandly at her coronation, and Jaime looking concerned. That's what I mean about events not being allowed to resonate. *****, in one day, the power apparatus of the Faith of the Seven was basically destroyed, as was an entire political family, AND the King and Queen BOTH DIED, with the King committing suicide!!!!! And all anyone's doing is standing around murmuring at Cersei's coronation?! Did it happen 5 minutes after the explosion, which is still smoking when Jaime rides up? Have the ruins been smoking for a month or something? What the hell?!?!
Whoops. Too late. Now we're off to Dorne. Whoops. Done with Dorne, now we're off to Dany's fleet. Oh hey! Varys teleported back! Groovy. Let's get that last shot in and call it a season.
Solo4114
Master Member
Yeah, I used to have this problem when I was a kid. I'd go visit a friend or they'd come to my place, and we'd plan out this HUGE G.I. Joe war that we were gonna have. We'd get the base set up, and decide which guys were on which side (we didn't default to Cobra vs. Joe, but rather cool vs. lame), who got which vehicles, who'd be driving them, what guys would have which weapons, etc. It'd take forever, but we'd have so much fun in the planning of it all. Then one of our parents would show up and say "Ok guys, time to start packing it up!" and we'd say "Awww, come on, can't we just play out the battle?" But no, we'd get maybe 10-15 min of hurriedly playing, and that'd be it.
Another version of this is familiar to anyone who has ever tried to play a game of Axis & Allies in a single afternoon.
I did find this stuff fun to watch and I did enjoy the episode on the whole, but this season has felt like all buildup and rushed conclusions.
I suppose it's possible the showrunners gave Martin some extra time to finish things up, but it could also be that they were working off of unfinished material he did give them. Or, for that matter, it may just be that the showrunners are better at adapting material than they are at creating it out of whole cloth, or they've fallen victim to formulaic season structuring, instead of allowing events to progress in a more organic fashion, or in a way that allows the story beats to resonate with the audience.
asalaw
Sr Member
My wife has another interesting theory...
Sam Tarley is going to rediscover the ancient knowledge of how to forge Valeryan steel, buried somewhere in the Citadel library. It will make victory against the WW possible.
My own addition to that is he'll get an audience with Dany, who will turn out thousands of such swords for the war. I also think Sam will wind up as lord of House Tarley again, Dany's reward to him for saving the world, as well as the posting of Grandmaester on the Small Council. The Night's Watch will be dissolved because it's served its purpose (and Dany is, after all, the Breaker of Chains).
My own addition to that is he'll get an audience with Dany, who will turn out thousands of such swords for the war. I also think Sam will wind up as lord of House Tarley again, Dany's reward to him for saving the world, as well as the posting of Grandmaester on the Small Council. The Night's Watch will be dissolved because it's served its purpose (and Dany is, after all, the Breaker of Chains).
in The books there is Willas Tyrell. I am not sure if they cut him out of the show all together, or just haven't mentioned him and turned him into a younger brother instead of the High Garden heir before Loras
Solo4114
Master Member
I dimly recall Sansa being promised to him at some point in the show. Like, back in Season 3 or 4 maybe? Something like that. But yeah, I guess it'd fall to him now. Another character the showrunners forgot (see also: Gendry -- still rowing! Nothing outlasts the Gendrygizer!).
