Star Trek: Discovery (2017)

How are you watching Star Trek: Discovery?

  • Signed up for CBS All Access before watching the premiere

    Votes: 13 9.1%
  • Signed up for CBS All Access after watching the premiere

    Votes: 13 9.1%
  • Not signing up, but will watch if it's available for free

    Votes: 82 57.3%
  • On Netflix (Non-US viewer)

    Votes: 35 24.5%

  • Total voters
    143
I disagree that Star Trek has always been through the eyes of the captain. When it's at its best it's always been ensemble. Kirk is the main character, but In TNG and DS9 all the main characters got turns in the spotlight. In some episodes the captain is barely an extra.
 
Even in TOS, we had McCoy episodes and Scotty episodes and Spock episodes... Shatner's ego ensured he was still heavily involved in all of the focus stories on other characters, but whole minutes would go by when Kirk wasn't on screen.

--Jonah
 
I disagree that Star Trek has always been through the eyes of the captain. When it's at its best it's always been ensemble. Kirk is the main character, but In TNG and DS9 all the main characters got turns in the spotlight. In some episodes the captain is barely an extra.

Let's not forget one of the most groundbreaking Star Trek episodes ever, "The Best of Both Worlds". Despite this featuring the return of the Borg and Picard being kidnapped and assimilated by them, is not about Picard! It's about Riker! He's about to be promoted to Captain, he's got a First Officer rival with Commander Shelby, Picard thinks he's better off commanding his own ship and Riker has doubts that he's ready to make the big decisions that a Captain would make. He makes the point of playing it safe with Shelby and is told that if he can't make the hard decisions, he should leave room for someone who can. Well,

*Slow pan around Riker. Music tension is building*
Riker: Mr. Worf, fire.

Now this episode naturally gave Picard more centralized stories down the line like "I, Borg" and "Star Trek: First Contact", but "The Best of Both Worlds" proves beyond a measure of a doubt that a First Officer can carry a show as the lead.
 
Disagree with Will Riker carrying a show as lead. He was a putz who went out of his way to sabotage his own career. Turning down multiple commands, even Picard told him that the Enterprise would go on without him (hardly indispensable). It took Riker, what twelve years to finally take command of his own ship? Sure, he held his own for one episode only. Even an Admiral of Starfleet sent another Captain to run Enterprise (Jellico) when Picard got captured by the Cardasians, despite Riker's protest. Clearly Shelby had what it takes to be a Captain, arguably more so than Riker.

I'm sorry, but if Picard would have been killed off as a Borg, or was used only as a recurring Borg villain, I hardly doubt Riker could have carried the series onward. Even Chipotle (yes, I'll allow autocorrect to keep this spelling) from Voyager would have made a more interesting Commander to follow despite his lack of character development.
 
But does that mean a character who is a First Officer cannot carry a show in Star Trek? That's what I was really getting at.

Don't be silly, Rabbit. Tricks are for kids. Of course not, but not just any First Officer can carry the series. If she is like Shelby, I would say absolutely.
 
Disagree with Will Riker carrying a show as lead. He was a putz who went out of his way to sabotage his own career. Turning down multiple commands, even Picard told him that the Enterprise would go on without him (hardly indispensable). It took Riker, what twelve years to finally take command of his own ship?

Starfleet doesn't work like the modern military. It is a paramilitary organization with a military-esque rank hierarchy for the usual organizational reasons. That has been more enforced in times of conflict (as with the Klingons or the Dominion War) and less enforced in times of peace (like the time in the 2350s and '60s, prior to the Borg and Dominion and such). They don't have the same "up or out" policy, and it's fine for officers to languish in a billet where they're happy and doing a good job for a lot longer than real-world conventions would lead us to expect. To quote myself in another thread:

It's easy for me to extrapolate [...] about 5,000 or so active vessels in Starfleet circa 2375, including non-combatants and those being repaired. Out of those, there are nine Galaxy class starships, and only the best of the best get there. This also doesn't include non-Starfleet "civilian" ships flagged to one or another member system. I imagine there are all levels of aspiration and ambition amongst 24th-century folks (human and non), and many are content hauling cargo, many are content getting whatever billet will let them study nebulae or pulsars or what have you. Comparatively few might even be interested in trying to get onto a deep-space Explorer that can, should the mission dictate, head out away from known space for a good fifteen years at a stretch.

Picard did something between the loss of the Stargazer and when we first meet him in "Encounter at Farpoint" to give him a lot of clout, enough to get the new Enterprise and handpick his command crew. They offered him a promotion to the Admiralty and the position of Commandant of Starfleet Academy that same year. Riker had been offered his first command when he was still a Lieutenant Commander (probably the rank Picard was when he had to take the bridge of the Stargazer, by the way), and he'd only been a full Commander and on the Enterprise for about a year and a half when they made their second offer. It was only when they made their third offer another year and a half after that that he was in someone's way on the Enterprise for the first time. And Shelby's ambition was out of the ordinary, as Hanson commented on it and both Riker and Picard were rocked back by it. I get the feeling for those top-of-the-line ships, you have to really want it to get there.

But the crisis passed, Picard was retrieved, Shelby went elsewhere, and Riker was able to hang out where he was unmolested for another five years before the Enterprise-D was destroyed (the ship he wanted), and then two or three years after that he got the Titan. I'm guessing he let Starfleet Command know that with the Enterprise-D gone he was once again on the Command track.

Even an Admiral of Starfleet sent another Captain to run Enterprise (Jellico) when Picard got captured by the Cardasians, despite Riker's protest. Clearly Shelby had what it takes to be a Captain, arguably more so than Riker.

*shakes head* Nope. Jellico was brought in when Picard was reassigned, both occurrences part of the same thing Starfleet Command had going. Picard and his strike team were still on the Enterprise training/prepping while Jellico was in command. And he was brought in because of his track record in dealing with the Cardassians, which Riker just didn't have, and which Starfleet expected to be needed before the crisis point had passed.

I'm sorry, but if Picard would have been killed off as a Borg, or was used only as a recurring Borg villain, I hardly doubt Riker could have carried the series onward. Even Chipotle (yes, I'll allow autocorrect to keep this spelling) from Voyager would have made a more interesting Commander to follow despite his lack of character development.

I think both Chakotay and Riker would be interesting Captains. We see enough of Riker's command style in "Peak Performance", "Best of Both Worlds", "Future Imperfect", and "All Good Things..." that I feel a show around him would feel a lot like TOS -- a confident and laid-back Captain who has a good and friendly rapport with his command crew and always has time for the needs of his crew. Chakotay would be a bit more Picard-like, but with a wry sense of humor that sneaks out from time to time, and he'd be possibly a little heavier on the compassion than Riker. *shrug* Ultimately, it all comes down to writing. They could both be well-written, they could both be badly-written.

--Jonah
 
Starfleet doesn't work like the modern military. It is a paramilitary organization with a military-esque rank hierarchy for the usual organizational reasons. That has been more enforced in times of conflict (as with the Klingons or the Dominion War) and less enforced in times of peace (like the time in the 2350s and '60s, prior to the Borg and Dominion and such). They don't have the same "up or out" policy, and it's fine for officers to languish in a billet where they're happy and doing a good job for a lot longer than real-world conventions would lead us to expect. To quote myself in another thread:

I still maintain that Riker staying on as XO for as long he did still gums up the works, Riker staying on as XO of the Enterprise denies some other officer the opportunity to move up to XO of the Enterprise. It's not about up or out but making room for others to move up, it's all a connected system, one person moving up opens up their position for someone else to move up into their position, and now that person's job is open and needs to be filled, and so on. By Riker not taking the offered command means that someone out there is screwed out of a promotion to XO, in return someone else is screwed out of a promotion to replace the guy who was supposed to replace Riker, and so on. Of course, there ways to get around this but it would involve shuffling personnel around a bit but it wouldn't involve someone staying where they are. Riker doesn't want a command, fine, shuffle him off to a staff position somewhere, or XO of a ship that just lost theirs, doesn't really matter, you get him off of the Enterprise to clear things up and get the machine running again.
 
I agree that Riker's kind of in the way, didn't an episode with a woman trying to take his place have her mention that he's just in the way of everyone trying to get promoted? If you want to stay a first officer for life that's fine but do it on a freighter or smaller ship. Most places will get rid of you if you keep refusing promotions.
 
I agree that Riker's kind of in the way, didn't an episode with a woman trying to take his place have her mention that he's just in the way of everyone trying to get promoted? If you want to stay a first officer for life that's fine but do it on a freighter or smaller ship. Most places will get rid of you if you keep refusing promotions.

Agreed, I can see people letting it slide once, twice they may start to question the officer's competence and/or confidence, by the third time I'd think that the powers that be would say no to any more promotions, at least no more promotion offers to commanding a ship. After that third refusal I'd think that they'd go ahead and give Riker a promotion to Captain but then transfer him to some desk job back at Starfleet command or some other major base/command where he's only commanding a relatively small number of staffers and shuffling "papers".
 
You guys are treating tv a little too much like real life. Consider MASH probably the most popular military show ever. They spent eleven years complaining about being in a three year war and the only people who ever got promoted were the priest and the guy in a dress. Sometimes the reason is: so they will stay on the show.

Besides, same is true of the captain. They kept Picard because people like Patrick Stewart, but in the show he's even more in the way. In real life you don't stay Captain for 20 years. If you're not Admiral material then you're out the door long before then.
 
http://io9.gizmodo.com/michael-dorn-had-a-good-reason-for-turning-down-the-cha-1794259001
Can't really blame Dorn at all for this. He was pushing a very long time to get his own show. This would be like a former employer saying, "hey we love you, want you for another position, can't wait to work with you again...and oh yeah, as for your salary...yeah...how's about 1%of what you were making sound to you?!".

The Man should have told them off in Klingon. I could see if he was a lesser character, but surely they could have dug just a little deeper in their pockets.
 

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