Disney STAR WARS ship design: Why it's ugly and how to fix it.

Ironically that was the scene I really wanted too see happen. Probably too risky for Disney's soccer-mom focus group.
It's one of those things that, I assumed, Han said to sound impressive.

It's like, "you've never heard of the millennium falcon?" It was all talk at that point.

We know chewie. Would he really rip the arm off of someone if he lost a game?

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It's one of those things that, I assumed, Han said to sound impressive.

It's like, "you've never heard of the millennium falcon?" It was all talk at that point.

We know chewie. Would he really rip the arm off of someone if he lost a game?

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Depends on how much he had to drink.
 
I did not watch OP video but the U-wing has moved up to 2nd place in my star fighter design list.I also think most of the discussion is held up by memories that are 40 years old (not that Ot designs aren't great I love those also)
 
This is what happens when half the designers on a movie weren't even born when the original trilogy was around. It's why all scifi ships in franchises look bad now, instead of sticking with what works they just throw things together.

Speaking of throwing things together; although I consider the U-Wing to be one of the less objectionable designs, it is essentially just a Y-Wing head attached to X-Wing engines with stretched Falcon Mandibles. Many of the concepts in the recent "Art of" books, involve "Frankensteining" parts from existing ships into new, but all too familiar vehicles. That is a very limiting and short-sighted design philosophy.

Hey, at the very beginning of that video! I've mentioned, at least three times on this board, how I had read about Doug Chiang saying he didn't like the designs of some of the original SW ships, that he wanted them done his own way. I was pretty much told I was mistaken about what I read and that he loved all those designs. I knew I read or heard that somewhere!

The quote was taken from the Episode 1 web documentary "A thousand things". It's included on the Phantom Menace DVD, but can also be found on YouTube. Surprisingly, there is some implied criticism of the original AT-AT in the "Art of Rogue One" book as well. I don't have the exact quote, but the gist of it was that it wasn't as good as he remembered. This played into the "How you remember it, not how it was" mantra that apparently ran through production of the movie. He then referred to the new AT-ACT as being "sexier" IIRC.

This is all down to personal taste

That's not entirely true. Much like film criticism, there are aspects of production design that can be objectively analyzed. There are also principles of design. The further a concept deviates from those principles, the more niche its appeal is likely to be. I think it's fair to say that Disney and Lucasfilm want mass appeal, not niche.

i like the ship that reys parents were leaving on, i also really liked the quad jumper..

When I saw the lime green QuadJumper in the teaser and the bare-metal one in the trailer I was excited for the design. Unfortunately I discovered later that the front of the ship was essentially the same as the rear. It really needs some variation to the engine intakes and engine profile, along with a more prominent cockpit.

It is also a lot easier to modify an existing design.. if you wanted to prove a point, designing your own ships may have served you better.

I have to disagree about proving my point. Modifying the existing design, based on the 2 issues I highlighted, allows for a direct comparison of the efficacy of those changes.

I did not watch OP video...

Don't be afraid. It isn't that blasphemous.:)
 
What Wes R said above. LFL and ILM are, after all and for how much we laud them, businesses. With personnel turnover. McQuarrie's died, Colin Cantwell isn't around any more, Joe Johnston ismbeing a director now, Nilo Rodis has retired... Each brought their own aesthetic. Nilo was the lead designer for ROTJ, and it shows. I can see very, very clearly the same person designed Slave I as designed Jabba's barge and the B-Wing. I can see the same person designed the Emperor's Guard helmets and the new A-, B-, and Y-Wing pilots' helmets. Etc. Look-wise, ROTJ is very different to me from the first film.

And then the Prequels are a whole different animal, with a whole new generation of designers, and very few of the old guard. And so again, now. About my only real criticism of any of the new designs is Kylo's shuttle's wings having such a ridiculously limited range of motion.

Lastly, Disney isn't designing anything. It's internal to Lucasfilm, as it's always been.

--Jonah
 
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Lastly, Disney isn't designing anything. It's internal to Lucasfilm, as it's always been.

--Jonah

Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that was the case. To keep my video title brief I needed an umbrella term for the new era of Star Wars production and couldn't think of anything more apt. Any suggestions? That said, I don't think it's been established whether or not Kathleen Kennedy held discussions with Disney's executives regarding the direction the franchise should take. A joint decision by them to play it safe and rely on nostalgia would indirectly influence the design of the films.
 
Everytime I watch TFA I wonder how on earth that shuttle managed to land in that SD. The length and height of those wings seemed to exclude it from getting into or even safely landing in any of its dock.
The "problem" with some of the newer ship designs is that they don't apply the old common sense rules to the actual purpose of the craft, so that then all the engineering choices put into them look off.
I call it the "Flash Gordon" syndrome: They're supposed to be fantastic sci fi vehicles so the concept artists often draw spacecraft that are made to look really futuristic by being all weird and alien, rather than "purposeful".
The original Star Wars trilogy films mostly avoided this by having artists and modellers who were grounded in the real world of concept design. Which is why we loved them so much. Any ship that had a very weird engine arrangment , or a very strangely shaped hull, very odd wings or was just a plainly silly overall design choice got chucked out early because it was too radically different to the WWII asthetic that George Lucas wanted then.
What then remained after the artists and the modellers built them then made immediate sense to us the moment you saw it .But even if when they were different , like the "walking tanks", they kept it simple to just four legs on the AT AT , not six(like the prequels ), and they then kept the rest of the design to recognisably natural choices built around the rest of that concept.
So many craft looked like their real world counter parts In the OST ie SDs were huge space battleships, X/Y wing /Ties were obviously single man fighters ,transport freights were battered, worn and weathered like old trucks and each of those models served a distinct real life purpose true to their designs in those worlds.There was nothing stupidly useless about any of them. Which is why the Prequel craft mostly fail because nearly every one of them went "Flash Gordon" on us, from the chromed shiny arrows, the daft swallow like Naboo fighters, the horrifyingly awful droid fighters etc,etc.
So whilst I liked most of the new choices made for "Rogue One", I still sighed heavily when I saw the stupid blade command bridge sticking out of the bottom of Mon Calimari hull, why the Tie Striker didn't have a more hawk like instead of pill shaped body and I wondered what the hell use the old rebel frieghter transports (from TESB) were doing there at the end ( other than to get splattered by Vaders emerging SD).
The same went for TFA, I liked the inclusion of alot of the old stuff, I thought the updated X wings were great, but I hated the glimpses of the PT like craft ie Reys "parents" chrome craft, the "Quad jumper" that just seemed to be all engines, the newer Tie fighters that had guns sticking out all over them at odd angles, the Pokerball "Death Star". They just seemed poor choices. And Leias flying "Brick" and Hans LEGO frieghter????? Well I think thats entirely the reason they designs were chosen.
 
Sorry. I didn't mean to imply that was the case. To keep my video title brief I needed an umbrella term for the new era of Star Wars production and couldn't think of anything more apt. Any suggestions? That said, I don't think it's been established whether or not Kathleen Kennedy held discussions with Disney's executives regarding the direction the franchise should take. A joint decision by them to play it safe and rely on nostalgia would indirectly influence the design of the films.

I'd just go with "newer" Star Wars. Maybe "post-Lucasian". The last cinematic offering was in 2005. There's a whole new generation for whom this is the first Star Wars they're seeing in theaters.

Or, since there's such aesthetic difference between Clone Wars, TFA, Rebels, and Rogue One, I'd go so far as to call out specific entries or ships. It's been three and a half decades and I still find the B-Wing design ludicrous (despite loving it). Some things are practical considerations. The TFA FO troop transport setpiece (pretty much just the interior and ramp) was intended to be reused for the Resistance transport (I prefer the concept design to the final result -- but the final result was what happens when you change your mind too late to change the thing), and did get resued for both the cargo shuttle and TIE Reaper in Rogue One. It is always cheaper to reuse already-built pieces if you can.

Most of my issues with any of the newer craft stem from inadequate context in the films. For instance, I hated the First Order snowspeeder until I found out it wasn't a combat craft, or even patrol, but a utility lorry, basically. The Resistance troop transport was redesigned from a decent landing craft to an atmospheric shuttle when a later draft of the script had Maz's castle and the Resistance base on the same planet. That got changed even later, but it was too late to build all new models and setpieces. I hate it as a spaceship, but it'd be fine as a planetary shuttle. Things like that.

Everytime I watch TFA I wonder how on earth that shuttle managed to land in that SD. The length and height of those wings seemed to exclude it from getting into or even safely landing in any of its dock.

The wings offset and the upper halves drop for almost their whole length, putting the shuttle's height well within Lambda-class range:

latest


The "problem" with some of the newer ship designs is that they don't apply the old common sense rules to the actual purpose of the craft, so that then all the engineering choices put into them look off.

That, and much of what you said after. Ralph McQuarrie spent most of his pre-Star Wars career as an illustrator was doing technical work. I really do think people like McQuarrie and Matt Jeffries bring an engineer's aesthetic to their designs that pure artists lack. Fantastical elements are fine, as long as there's some evident purpose to them. Why I wish the wings on Kylo's shuttle swung out further -- as they are, it fails even the "it looks cool" metric of all the other articulated wings in Star Wars. I level the same accusation against the ARC-170, for that matter. Pointless (even the rationalization makes me cringe) "s-foils", just so they can have the "lock s-foils in attack position" line in ROTS. *sigh*

So whilst I liked most of the new choices made for "Rogue One", I still sighed heavily when I saw the stupid blade command bridge sticking out of the bottom of Mon Calimari hull

Never mind the "flying city/ark" thing, they were always, in the old EU, civilian ships repurposed. I guess the Admiral was confident in his shields...

why the Tie Striker didn't have a more hawk like instead of pill shaped body

Cuz it still has to have a TIE cockpit. Streamlining of parts procurement, and otherwise it wouldn't be a TIE. Even TIEs with more than two engines (like Vader's prototype) are still TIEs. It's become a style designator.

and I wondered what the hell use the old rebel frieghter transports (from TESB) were doing there at the end

Unless they were in case they needed to land troops, I got nothin'.

The same went for TFA, I liked the inclusion of alot of the old stuff, I thought the updated X wings were great, but I hated the glimpses of the PT like craft ie Reys "parents" chrome craft,

Which we barely saw in the final film:

how-rogue-one-could-introduce-rey-s-parents-set-up-star-wars-episode-8-ouch-my-emotion-799498.jpg


Doesn't look "chrome" to me. A bit of sun-glare, but that's all... I think it looked fine in the ultimately-unfilmed "handoff" shot:

JP75vLr.jpg


the "Quad jumper" that just seemed to be all engines

It is. It's a tug.

the newer Tie fighters that had guns sticking out all over them at odd angles

The standard First Order TIE Fighters are the same old design with new color scheme. The Special Forces TIE Fighter has those weird "cogs" at the wing attach points, an antenna cluster to the right of the cockpit, and a rear turret for the gunner.

the Pokerball "Death Star"

The design of the Starkiller made sense to me. How else are you going to build such a weapon into a planet? The resemblance is coincidental. Do we say the creators of Pokemon ripped off the original design of the Death Star?

Leias flying "Brick" and Hans LEGO frieghter

I already addressed the former further above, and as for the latter... I do prefer some of the concept designs. He needed a big bulk hauler to be able to have room to bring the Falcon aboard. I think they just didn't want it to be a cool enough design it overshadowed the Falcon.

--Jonah
 
Most of my issues with any of the newer craft stem from inadequate context in the films. For instance, I hated the First Order snowspeeder until I found out it wasn't a combat craft, or even patrol, but a utility lorry, basically. The Resistance troop transport was redesigned from a decent landing craft to an atmospheric shuttle when a later draft of the script had Maz's castle and the Resistance base on the same planet. That got changed even later, but it was too late to build all new models and setpieces. I hate it as a spaceship, but it'd be fine as a planetary shuttle. Things like that.

When the TFA FO lander was first shown, I and some other people jokingly said they probably told them to "make a space version of the Higgins boat." Later on we found out that's exactly what they were told! They already had the basis for a lander/gunship in the Republic Gunship, so they should have made an Imperial/FO version of that. You go from an awesome gunship that can tear stuff up as it's landing, to a flying box. The scenes of Clonetroopers landing and disembarking from the gunship was a lot cooler than the FO lander, IMO. It just seems like they concentrated on designing certain things like the X-Wing (well partially design) and the Star Destroyer and the rest was left to the B design team.
 
It's the way that the concept industry has been chasing itself in circles for over a decade- mediocre students glom on to a 'take a shot in the dark' process that got some lip service and was completely overrated as a design means. That started to pervade game design and then sadly moved upwards. No one seems to have even the most basic understanding of the artists, designers, industry, and movements that inspired and were the contemporaries and teachers of the first SW crews, yet have sadly learned a language that makes them sound knowledgeable and insightful where there's no understanding or substance. Of course you're gonna get crap out of that.
 
...or is it that Syd Mead, Joe Johnston, Macquarie are just in legendary status and the others (cough cough) aren't as good.

When I see Syd Mead and Macquarie's works they create a mood/ feeling that draws you in and makes you just stare at the painting. Not sure I get this from the new guard.
 
When the TFA FO lander was first shown, I and some other people jokingly said they probably told them to "make a space version of the Higgins boat." Later on we found out that's exactly what they were told! They already had the basis for a lander/gunship in the Republic Gunship, so they should have made an Imperial/FO version of that. You go from an awesome gunship that can tear stuff up as it's landing, to a flying box. The scenes of Clonetroopers landing and disembarking from the gunship was a lot cooler than the FO lander, IMO. It just seems like they concentrated on designing certain things like the X-Wing (well partially design) and the Star Destroyer and the rest was left to the B design team.

On the one hand, I wish they'd used something derived from the extant body of work, such as the assault transport of the old flight-sim games:

latest?cb=20050929213301.jpg


But even then, I can allow for the Higgins boat. It's simple, it makes sense, and the First Order isn't the Empire of the OT. There's still an Imperial "remnant" in "civilized" space, but these guys have been out there in the Unknown Regions for over a generation. They've got a new name, a new logo, new uniforms, new ships... In somecases they have hewn closely to their Imperial inspiration, in others they seem to have laid down their own aesthetic. If the Higgins boat had shown up in Rogue One, I'd've rationalized things differently (old-model AT-ATs, basic TIEs, and old-fashioned landing craft -- were they what had been sent to Ilum to begin building the Starkiller before ANH?), but as it is, I can lay lack of imagination at the feet of the First Order as readily as I can the designers.
BLADE and BRUSH, pick up the Art of TFA and Rogue One books. There's a lot in there about the evolution of the films and the designs along with them. Some choices I agree with, some I don't. Ryan Church had some lovely directions that didn't get pursued. Of course, I also want to smack him for his "understanding" of lightsaber workings... Doug Chiang occasionally has a strongly Prequel-y feel to his work, but I also liked a lot of what he came up with that didn't get pursued.

--Jonah
 
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Rose-tinted glasses are always epidemic in these discussions.

Look at the Millennium Falcon, or Slave 1, or the ESB medical frigate. They are wild shapes with familiar-looking greeblies & cockpits & rocket engines. Whatever practicality they have in our minds has been rationalized onto them.
 
Thanks Johan ,I'd forgotten about the wings sliding inside eachother on Rens Shuttle. What a stupid concept.
As regards Reys parents craft it still looks silver to me in the film and uninteresting. Strangely enough the concept art picture works better when viewed upside down! Talking of which how the hell is it managing to even stand up on those two stubby little legs when even a light breeze should tip it over ( if not also the pilot walking into cabin and sitting in the seat!)
Again its those kind of stupid design choices that when you see it doesn't make you think, "Hey thats a good ship" but "Well thats a stupid idea,wheres the other leg?"
And if the Quadjumper was a tug then it would have been better to show it dragging a ship or a piece of wreckage across the desert. Much of what made the OT films so excellent was what was seen going on in the background. Just a brief glimpse on film is enough to establish meaning, purpose and design ,rather than having to read about it later ,which is when you know the concept has failed.If it has to be described rather than the audience easily accepting it on screen then its a poorly conceived idea.
Which is why that blade bridge was such a bad choice in R1. How many people would get into any vehicle if its control cabin is stuck in the air projecting vulnerability? Its just begging to get knocked off accidentally (like a wing mirror) or allowing it to be targeted deliberately. In an attackship in which is defence to collisions and barrages is parmount to the design its a terrible flawed idea. Which is why the original SDs and capital ships are great and why Hans cars arse of new freighter was not.
It was made to allow set pieces in the story to happen ie scooping up the Falcon like a scrapper and as a maze for the Rathernots to roll around and chase people , NOT as a purposefully constructed spacecraft. And its those kind of choice that are constantly being made now that REALLY annoy, its because the story requires the shape and flaws in the craft , rather than the ships design dictating what actions happen around it. And that really weakens the entire script.
No better case exists in the trilogy for that than Star Killer Base. From its ridiculous size, construction, design, firing mechanism, the Falcon crashing through its sheilding at lightspeed, the trench, the dimming of the sun, there is so much about that that detracts from the rest of the film I hated its inclusion. It exists simply to allow set pieces in the story arc to happen right up to Han plunging off into a huge abyss simply because the bridge he was on did not have guard rails. Its showboating on a huge scale , it looks and feels dramatically fake and it detracts from the actual tragedy of Hans actual death.The same can be said of Leias sudden appearance, the B brick opens up like a stage to "reveal" her.
At least Rogue One avoided most of those pitfalls and felt more like an honest SW film, though it did have its moments. I take your point about the cockpit in the Tie, but if you have "The Art of Rogue One" you'll have seen that Tie design with a sleaker angular body shape that look much better than that pillbox. And they did change the shape of it anyway with the Deathtrooper landing craft.

PS B & B- your altered U wing is better, but its quite a good design for an SW craft anyway.
 
It was made to allow set pieces in the story to happen ie scooping up the Falcon like a scrapper and as a maze for the Rathernots to roll around and chase people , NOT as a purposefully constructed spacecraft. And its those kind of choice that are constantly being made now that REALLY annoy, its because the story requires the shape and flaws in the craft , rather than the ships design dictating what actions happen around it. And that really weakens the entire script.

No better case exists in the trilogy for that than Star Killer Base. From its ridiculous size, construction, design, firing mechanism, the Falcon crashing through its sheilding at lightspeed, the trench, the dimming of the sun, there is so much about that that detracts from the rest of the film I hated its inclusion. It exists simply to allow set pieces in the story arc to happen right up to Han plunging off into a huge abyss simply because the bridge he was on did not have guard rails. Its showboating on a huge scale , it looks and feels dramatically fake and it detracts from the actual tragedy of Hans actual death.The same can be said of Leias sudden appearance, the B brick opens up like a stage to "reveal" her.

The original ANH Death Star was made so implausibly big because the ILM guys told Lucas they needed the surface to (appear) flat.

They needed a flat surface because they were doing trench runs along the side of the thing for miles, instead of just going straight at their target . . because Lucas wanted to mimic a WWII movie's trench run scene.

Why were the tractor beam controls perched on the back side of a round kiosk in the middle of a giant shaft down to the bowels of the DS? If a modern SW movie did that it would be mocked with internet memes before the first showing of the movie was finished on opening night.

Why did the Emperor's throne room in ROTJ have a convenient shaft down to the bowels of Death Star #2?

WTF is with the whole concept of "blowing up a planet" anyway? Don't even start down that road of thinking. The amount of energy that would require isn't even in normal human comprehension. It's like trying to visualize how big the universe is.

The Empire could have scattered a bunch of neutron-bombs on Alderaan, killed all the people, and saved all the infrastructure & resources.


Rose-tinted glasses.
 
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For a moment I was worried until I remembered you started this thread: http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=202317


And I quote:

I get it, they built the original SW models with greeblies to help the models look bigger and for the "used space" look that Lucas wanted. But even so, it seems really overdone in some cases.

The X-wings are pretty decent.

But, the Star Destroyers?
The TIE fighters?
The entire surface of the Death Star?
Shouldn't the Empire look more like they have their ***** together than the local smugglers' hot rods? At least a little bit?



I'm debating starting a 5ft Millennium Falcon build. The whole project seems a whole lot more fun if I don't try for perfect accurate details and get a little more creative in the interpretation . . . I wonder if the ship might actually look MORE realistic if the greeblies were toned down a bit compared to the actual ILM props.

I'm picturing something that isn't quite so "busy" looking on every single inch of the exterior. The existing detail on the greeblies is good, I just want more/larger areas without any greeblies at all.

Also, maybe a little more variation on the color/surface finishes of the model. The ILM stuff looks like they began every paint/weathering job by dunking the finished model in a tank of flat gray paint. NASA's stuff has never really looked like that.


--------





The original ANH Death Star was made so implausibly big because the ILM guys told Lucas they needed the surface to (appear) flat.

They needed a flat surface because they were doing trench runs along the side of the thing for miles, instead of just going straight at their target . . because Lucas wanted to mimic a WWII movie's trench run scene.

Why were the tractor beam controls perched on the back side of a round kiosk in the middle of a giant shaft down to the bowels of the DS? If a modern SW movie did that it would be mocked with internet memes before the first showing of the movie was finished on opening night.

Why did the Emperor's throne room in ROTJ have a convenient shaft down to the bowels of Death Star #2?

WTF is with the whole concept of "blowing up a planet" anyway? Don't even start down that road of thinking. The amount of energy that would require isn't even in normal human comprehension. It's like trying to visualize how big the universe is.

The Empire could have scattered a bunch of neutron-bombs on Alderaan, killed all the people, and saved all the infrastructure & resources.


Rose-tinted glasses.


If you go the Battlestar Galactica way with the films using nuclear weapons that's fine. But they are never mentioned in a SW universe. And as you don't seem to like most of what ILM did with their models originally then we aren't ever going to agree.
 
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