Read the hate yourself the last few pages back?
Star Trek: Discovery (2017)
- Thread starter mkstewartesq
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Read the hate yourself the last few pages back?
BlobVanDam
Sr Member
I think given what we know about the show so far, Section 31 would go against the spirit of the show. Section 31 were always the bad guys, and it wouldn't make sense imo for this to be related to them or their formation.
The only thing I'd read into the registry is the era, and I hope even that is wrong, because setting the show pre-TOS is going to box them in even harder than Enterprise. I'd still much prefer post-Nemesis.
My theory is that it will be set between ST6 and TNG. The ship will be an old vessel during the time of the show, taken out of mothballs to deal with some Klingon stuff.
Someone pointed out the cloaking sound effect at the end of the tease, so maybe the Discovery is running secret missions using a cloak and might lead to the reason why the federation might not use cloaking later on.
If they go this route it could lead to a lot of good tense cold war/submarine/spy thriller stuff that would make for a good show imo.
That would also fit with a Section 31 thing as well, and not sure how I feel about that.
Someone pointed out the cloaking sound effect at the end of the tease, so maybe the Discovery is running secret missions using a cloak and might lead to the reason why the federation might not use cloaking later on.
If they go this route it could lead to a lot of good tense cold war/submarine/spy thriller stuff that would make for a good show imo.
That would also fit with a Section 31 thing as well, and not sure how I feel about that.
Okay, I'll try to keep this delve brief... I know you all hate to slog through my mini-essays, however pertinent all the contents are. Understanding the creative brains behind one or another era of Trek, and what they were thinking/intending, is kind of essential to getting it all to work across the decades. When the past isn't taken into consideration, we in the present have to do varying degrees of mental contortion to get it to all work.
No one bothered to ask him until years later, but Matt Jeffries -- who handled most of the ship-registry stuff in TOS (everything except the Constellation and Defiant) -- had decided the number "1701" indicated the Federation's 17th Cruiser/Starship design*, and the 01st production hull built after the prototype (1700 -- the Constitution). This was what he had in mind when he did the wall chart on Commodore Stone's office wall in "Court Martial". The 1600-range registries he had on there he intended to be the class immediately preceding the Constitution class. In fandom, this is the Baton Rouge.
[*Other types had different prefixes -- NDD for Destroyers, for instance -- and would be numbered by their own construction timeline. So by the time Starfleet was on its 17th Cruiser, they might only be on their 6th Destroyer. To get the Jeffries system and the Okuda system (that has registries assigned at the time of ordering, regardless of class or type) to play in the same sandbox, I have the former system supplanted by the latter system intentionally by Starfleet in the mid-to-late-2280s, as shipbuilding capacity was increasing, and more designs from more races who were starting to involve themselves made keeping things separate less and less logical. I have the new system start at NCC-2500 and go from there. This is the approach that requires the least fiddling, and all to prefixes -- the Revere and Columbia from the TMP radio chatter, the Grissom, and the Jenolan.]
So, if the people making this are in any way aware of and honoring this approach, I have some hope. In fandom, the NCC-1000 block was the Horizon class. It didn't look like the Discovery concept art, but I'd generally have little problem with this now being a canon Horizon class ship... More or less. I know we've gotten used to glowy bits, but the main sensor dish (not a navigational deflector -- the systems weren't combined in-universe until the Ambassador class) shouldn't glow that far back. I can deal with the nacelle glow, though. I have no problem retconning TOS to have that aspect, either. I am not a fan of the multiple bussard field generator domes, or the blocky edges to the engines and secondary hull. But in general, I can even see a ship of this class being extensively refitted to Constitution-class specs (the longtime fandom explanation for the Constellation's problematic registry).
I am hoping it is, indeed, set sometime in the 2210s or '20s. That's around when Prime-timeline First Contact with the Klingons happened. I think there's a lot of story potential there, as I said upthread. Apart from a couple trips back to 20th/21st-century Earth, we have nothing prior to Pike on the Enterprise in the 2250s in the Prime timeline. No matter how convinced many of The Powers That Be are that it is, Enterprise is not a TOS prequel. It just doesn't work. So, if the show is pre-TOS, this is a period I'm excited to explore.
--Jonah
No one bothered to ask him until years later, but Matt Jeffries -- who handled most of the ship-registry stuff in TOS (everything except the Constellation and Defiant) -- had decided the number "1701" indicated the Federation's 17th Cruiser/Starship design*, and the 01st production hull built after the prototype (1700 -- the Constitution). This was what he had in mind when he did the wall chart on Commodore Stone's office wall in "Court Martial". The 1600-range registries he had on there he intended to be the class immediately preceding the Constitution class. In fandom, this is the Baton Rouge.
[*Other types had different prefixes -- NDD for Destroyers, for instance -- and would be numbered by their own construction timeline. So by the time Starfleet was on its 17th Cruiser, they might only be on their 6th Destroyer. To get the Jeffries system and the Okuda system (that has registries assigned at the time of ordering, regardless of class or type) to play in the same sandbox, I have the former system supplanted by the latter system intentionally by Starfleet in the mid-to-late-2280s, as shipbuilding capacity was increasing, and more designs from more races who were starting to involve themselves made keeping things separate less and less logical. I have the new system start at NCC-2500 and go from there. This is the approach that requires the least fiddling, and all to prefixes -- the Revere and Columbia from the TMP radio chatter, the Grissom, and the Jenolan.]
So, if the people making this are in any way aware of and honoring this approach, I have some hope. In fandom, the NCC-1000 block was the Horizon class. It didn't look like the Discovery concept art, but I'd generally have little problem with this now being a canon Horizon class ship... More or less. I know we've gotten used to glowy bits, but the main sensor dish (not a navigational deflector -- the systems weren't combined in-universe until the Ambassador class) shouldn't glow that far back. I can deal with the nacelle glow, though. I have no problem retconning TOS to have that aspect, either. I am not a fan of the multiple bussard field generator domes, or the blocky edges to the engines and secondary hull. But in general, I can even see a ship of this class being extensively refitted to Constitution-class specs (the longtime fandom explanation for the Constellation's problematic registry).
I am hoping it is, indeed, set sometime in the 2210s or '20s. That's around when Prime-timeline First Contact with the Klingons happened. I think there's a lot of story potential there, as I said upthread. Apart from a couple trips back to 20th/21st-century Earth, we have nothing prior to Pike on the Enterprise in the 2250s in the Prime timeline. No matter how convinced many of The Powers That Be are that it is, Enterprise is not a TOS prequel. It just doesn't work. So, if the show is pre-TOS, this is a period I'm excited to explore.
--Jonah
MrSouthpaw
Sr Member
I don't really want or need to see the step between ENT and TOS. We already know how it goes through existing material, more or less.
Post-Nemesis is what I hope this ends up being. It's the only direction with completely unknown stories to tell.
Post-Nemesis is what I hope this ends up being. It's the only direction with completely unknown stories to tell.
YenChih Lin
Master Member
There's not ENT, there's TOS, TNG, DSN and VOY Period
Father
Sr Member
Meaning you don't consider ENT as canon?
Kind of with him on that one. I pondered about getting the complete Enterprise set on Blu-Ray, but realized that I don't hate money nearly that much.
astroboy
Master Member
I just started watching enterprise on Netflix. I love it. I definitely prefer it to TNG
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I really liked Enterprise. I'm due to rewatch it. I think they did a great job with the design of the ship. It had a really interesting 1st season. I think the whole Xindi story arc was done well and carried through to the end. They took a lot of creative liberties in the last season. I guess they figured they knew they weren't getting renewed, might as well try something outside the norm. I recently rewatched DS9 and gained a whole new appreciation for that series, all over again.
Zombie_61
Master Member
Same here. I didn't care for The Next Generation, and hated what little I saw of Deep Space Nine and Voyager. I understand all of the complaints about Enterprise and despise the final episode as much as anyone, but it's the only spin-off series I enjoy.
BlobVanDam
Sr Member
We don't get to selectively decide that ENT didn't exist. It's prime timeline canon, end of story. Which means that if Discovery is pre-TOS, it's going to be stuck with all of that baggage. Which is why I really hope it isn't.
Except that that just doesn't work. Brannon Braga famously said in an interview, when called on his not, ah... feeling tied to pre-existing story points, "Continuity is for wussies". That is, he didn't let little things like what had been established in prior episodes or series get in the way of the story he wanted to tell. When they were making Generations, when he wanted Scotty there for the launch of the Enterprise-B along with Kirk, where Kirk is lost and presumed dead... It was pointed out to him that when Scotty had shown up on TNG, chronologically after that event, he thought Kirk was still alive (because he didn't know how much time had passed). Braga said, more or less, "So what? That was one episode. Who's going to pay attention to that?" For First Contact, he wanted Zefram Cochrane to be a woman, so as to be Picard's love interest. It was again pointed out to him that we'd met Cochrane before, in TOS, and he was definitely male. Braga said, "That was one episode, thirty years ago. Who's even going to remember that?" But wiser heads prevailed that time. He doesn't respect the setting/I.P. He doesn't respect the audience...
...And with Enterprise, he doesn't respect his own damn canon. Never mind how the tech doesn't fit the period. Never mind how it screws up design and tech continuity with both Klingons and Romulans. Never mind how T'Pol's breasts would never have evolved on a high-gravity world like Vulcan. Never mind how the Temporal Cold War was a bad idea largely due to how time travel in general is a bad idea (it never gets done right, because if it were, there's no dramatic tension). He had just given us the U.S.S. Dauntless, NX-01-A, over in Voyager. Granted it turned out to be a fake, none of the Academy-educated Starfleet crew even blinked at the name and registry. No one said "Hey -- wasn't NX-01 the Enterprise?" or "Was that the name of the first Starfleet ship?" or anything like that.
That's excepting that even the revised TMP still has the ringship between the space shuttle Enterprise and the Constitution-class Enterprise. Revised timeline, that ship was in service as a transport and exploration craft from about the early 22nd century (Starfleet -- the unified organization encompassing all Terran colonies -- was formed in the early 2130s... the ringship predates that by a little) to about the 2230s, in time for its successor to be chosen from the Constitution class then under development.
Enterprise the show, crap finale overlooked, only works as a preamble to the JJ-verse, no matter what Paramount's official stance is. And I will keep saying this until they frikkin' realize it. That finale can then be relegated to the same dumpster as "Threshold".
--Jonah
patrickivan
Sr Member
I like this ship. Though not a fan of McQuarrie designs in Star Trek, I do like how they pigeon holed this design in here. There's a honour to it that I respect.
I do like the name Discovery. And I do like how they forced the Discovery spherical command section from A Space Odyssey into the saucer section of this new ship. If it wasn't intentional, I'd be shocked. I'm betting that if there's a saucer sep, that sphere will be the prominent feature as opposed to just a neck...
I don't like how the nacelles are so low. People seem to equate long spindly struts with weakness. I see strength and confidence (eg Constitution Class) in long struts. The POWER is kept far away as possible, attached by something simple and strong. I mean, they HAVE to be strong... If they can harness matter/antimatter fuels volatile enough to travel far greater than the speed of light, manipulate gravity, send people through matter transmitters, I'm pretttttty sure they can manage to make something delicate be incredibly strong. And they must be.
I'm not a huge fan of the 3 bussards (that I'm not a fan of them being), but that's just because of the look. But it's just a personal aesthetic thing for me.
The constant comparison of the secondary hull to some sort of Klingon influence is perplexing. It just wouldn't happen. The design etic is too far apart. Too well established. Not that they can't do it here, but I highly doubt it and greatly hope not. I'm hoping the large space has to do with ferrying things/ people for colonization...
If it's pre-TOS, I hope they get rid of the PHASER nubs on the saucer. I liked ST: ENT's idea of having them hidden that pop out, and therefore allowing us to believe that's what TOS Enterprise had as well.
Anyway, I'm overall happy with it and hope they keep the details (from afar) toned down, and don't go crazy like on ENT.
----
One more thing. I REALLY hope they can compose some Star Trek theme that is suitable, instrumental, wonderous, adventurous, and something you can hear in your head that's not repetitive.
I do like the name Discovery. And I do like how they forced the Discovery spherical command section from A Space Odyssey into the saucer section of this new ship. If it wasn't intentional, I'd be shocked. I'm betting that if there's a saucer sep, that sphere will be the prominent feature as opposed to just a neck...
I don't like how the nacelles are so low. People seem to equate long spindly struts with weakness. I see strength and confidence (eg Constitution Class) in long struts. The POWER is kept far away as possible, attached by something simple and strong. I mean, they HAVE to be strong... If they can harness matter/antimatter fuels volatile enough to travel far greater than the speed of light, manipulate gravity, send people through matter transmitters, I'm pretttttty sure they can manage to make something delicate be incredibly strong. And they must be.
I'm not a huge fan of the 3 bussards (that I'm not a fan of them being), but that's just because of the look. But it's just a personal aesthetic thing for me.
The constant comparison of the secondary hull to some sort of Klingon influence is perplexing. It just wouldn't happen. The design etic is too far apart. Too well established. Not that they can't do it here, but I highly doubt it and greatly hope not. I'm hoping the large space has to do with ferrying things/ people for colonization...
If it's pre-TOS, I hope they get rid of the PHASER nubs on the saucer. I liked ST: ENT's idea of having them hidden that pop out, and therefore allowing us to believe that's what TOS Enterprise had as well.
Anyway, I'm overall happy with it and hope they keep the details (from afar) toned down, and don't go crazy like on ENT.
----
One more thing. I REALLY hope they can compose some Star Trek theme that is suitable, instrumental, wonderous, adventurous, and something you can hear in your head that's not repetitive.
YenChih Lin
Master Member
Not even, if I am on my deathbed…
This, so much this and more. ENT was promising, if they had changed:
1. Respect of continuity
2. No introduction new species like Dr. Phlox (he could have been all the ones we knew, yes I would even take a Tellarite aka Pigs in Space)
3. Technological cop out: The introduction of too many "familiar technology" that has the same name in disguise. See point 1.: It would have been Laser Blasters or even a plasma weapon, that would be much much weaker than a Phaser. The introduction of the transporter, "Phase Pistol", Universal Translator, etc. etc.
4. Which leads us to this point: The meddling executives. There's a saying we have in germany: "If you don't have a clue about the thing, simply STFU"
5. Introduction of known species, which are contradicting continuity. Ferengi, Borg, you name it. It was unecessary and irritating, despite the non-mentioning of their name.
6. The name "Enterprise" and the Registry. Why in all the world do you have to besmirch the good name with such a crap series. You could have picked a lot of names, just because the Enterprise is well know, doesn't work out in a set prequel, which massively contradicts, yet again, point 1. You could have named it "Yorktown", "Liberty", "Constellation", "Exeter", etc. etc. The registery as Inquisitor Peregrinus pointed out condradicts with the established canon. Could have done better.
7. T&A and nude upsell. I really pity the actresses being sold soley on the T&A factor, while Jeri's 7of9 did evolve, poor Jolene had to be the T&A token. If you start to bring nude scenes for the sake of itself or just to stir the pot, you gotta have a problem with story writing and you shouldn't be appointed as a exec producer.
8. While ENT was a child of it's time (we remember too well 9/11), the Xindi arc was the most boring one, including the not resolved stupid temporal cold war.
9. Color codes. It's surely a nod, but that doesn't really work and surely not like in the similar fashion design style of TNG. Should have been more like today's NASA, Coverall and nametags.
10. Flat characters like Mayweather… what a waste of potential. You don't have a cast, if you don't make the best use of them.
11. Ship design: too similar to Akira. A more sophisticated version of the ring ship or very primitive design precursoring the Deadalus class.
Best Man, Jeyl. Manly tears had been shed.
You ain't telling me, what I have to like or not.
This, so much this and more. ENT was promising, if they had changed:
1. Respect of continuity
2. No introduction new species like Dr. Phlox (he could have been all the ones we knew, yes I would even take a Tellarite aka Pigs in Space)
3. Technological cop out: The introduction of too many "familiar technology" that has the same name in disguise. See point 1.: It would have been Laser Blasters or even a plasma weapon, that would be much much weaker than a Phaser. The introduction of the transporter, "Phase Pistol", Universal Translator, etc. etc.
4. Which leads us to this point: The meddling executives. There's a saying we have in germany: "If you don't have a clue about the thing, simply STFU"
5. Introduction of known species, which are contradicting continuity. Ferengi, Borg, you name it. It was unecessary and irritating, despite the non-mentioning of their name.
6. The name "Enterprise" and the Registry. Why in all the world do you have to besmirch the good name with such a crap series. You could have picked a lot of names, just because the Enterprise is well know, doesn't work out in a set prequel, which massively contradicts, yet again, point 1. You could have named it "Yorktown", "Liberty", "Constellation", "Exeter", etc. etc. The registery as Inquisitor Peregrinus pointed out condradicts with the established canon. Could have done better.
7. T&A and nude upsell. I really pity the actresses being sold soley on the T&A factor, while Jeri's 7of9 did evolve, poor Jolene had to be the T&A token. If you start to bring nude scenes for the sake of itself or just to stir the pot, you gotta have a problem with story writing and you shouldn't be appointed as a exec producer.
8. While ENT was a child of it's time (we remember too well 9/11), the Xindi arc was the most boring one, including the not resolved stupid temporal cold war.
9. Color codes. It's surely a nod, but that doesn't really work and surely not like in the similar fashion design style of TNG. Should have been more like today's NASA, Coverall and nametags.
10. Flat characters like Mayweather… what a waste of potential. You don't have a cast, if you don't make the best use of them.
11. Ship design: too similar to Akira. A more sophisticated version of the ring ship or very primitive design precursoring the Deadalus class.
Ruff crowd.
SmilingOtter
Master Member
OK, I like that a bit better than the concept art. It could probably grow on me.
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