Game of Thrones

So... where are you getting the idea that Jon is a Baratheon? It's pretty heavily implied that he's a Targaryen, conceived when Rhegar "kidnapped" Lyanna, touching off that war.

I can't think of a single incident or comment that would lead to the conclusion that Lyanna ever allowed Robert to touch her, much less impregnate her.

I don't think its spoilery but a friend just sent this to me and it involves the "R+L=J."

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Is this a possible "P"? Maybe black hair Little finger is his daddy? Ned took your crush, so what better way to get pay back on Ned is to bleep his sister. Damn..mystery solved! You can call off scooby doo and the mystery inc.
 
Good point, and it's admittedly a deduction on my part. But Robert Baratheon was desperately in love with her, and Ned would have had a doubly overriding motive to protect Jon if he were another of Robert's bastards (as well as his nephew). The curly black hair is only circumstantial, since Bran, Benjen, and Robb are/were also black-haired.
But the real clincher for me is the way the two producers convinced GRRM that they were the guys to do the show. He asked them who Jon Snow's mother is, and they gave him the right answer. The question itself rules out Ned's "I fell into a hooker" story, and leads (IMO) straight to Lyanna. As to the father, there's never been (IIRC) any reference to Targaryen bastards; but Robert Baratheon had an army of them. So it's quite possible that Jon is one more. In that sense, I'm going more on what hasn't been said than what has, because silence can speak volumes.

Yup, he had an army of them... and every single woman he knocked up, he had nothing further to do with. It's my belief that the reason Robert was so hung up on Lyanna is because she's the one girl who told him 'no' and stuck with it.

Additionally, if Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, he's still Ned's nephew. Let us also not forget that Robert had a pathological hatred of all things Targaryen and would have absolutely had Jon murdered if he knew that Rhaegar had gotten Lyanna pregnant.
 
Yup, he had an army of them... and every single woman he knocked up, he had nothing further to do with. It's my belief that the reason Robert was so hung up on Lyanna is because she's the one girl who told him 'no' and stuck with it.

Additionally, if Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's son, he's still Ned's nephew. Let us also not forget that Robert had a pathological hatred of all things Targaryen and would have absolutely had Jon murdered if he knew that Rhaegar had gotten Lyanna pregnant.
All very valid points, and quite plausible. I don't happen to agree, but no matter -- we're at most 11 episodes away from finding out one way or the other. :)

HEY -- changing the subject, know what I just realized we haven't seen yet? Spiders, big as houses. :)
 
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All very valid points, and quite plausible. I don't happen to agree, but no matter -- we're at most 11 episodes away from finding out one way or the other. :)

HEY -- changing the subject, know what I just realized we haven't seen yet? Spiders, big as houses. :)


Yeah, I am quite content to go without those, thanks! :lol
 
One little thing I noticed rewatching the episode - when Ramsay is telling Jon & co. about his dogs being starved, Sansa had already ridden off. I guess she asked for suggestions about how best to off him and someone - I'm hoping Lady Mormont - mentioned the dogs.
 
As far as men in plate falling off of their horses and becoming tortoises, that's an old myth that's completely untrue. Even by the time they developed full plate that completely covered a man in head to toe steel with barely a gap anywhere they still could mount their horses on their own and if knocked down, get back up on their feet on their own. Back before Henry VIII had his jousting accident it was said that he could perform cartwheels in his armor because plate armor is always fitted to it wearer and is actually lighter than a modern infantry combat load with the added benefit of being distributed all over your body instead of just on your torso. But you are right in that by the time plate armor started to really take off the use of the arming sword by knights and men at arms had largely fallen to the way side in favor of poll axes, long swords, and impact weapons like maces. Since you couldn't cut through plate, or even mail for that matter, the idea then became to either punch holes in them, pierce into the gaps in the joints, or crush the armor and hopefully either bind the joints up or hit hard enough to break bones.

I'v eactually seen at least one video where a guy in plate literally does cartwheels. It's impressive. I suppose I'm talking more about if you're in a crush of infantry, wheeling your horse around, if you get dragged off said horse, you're pretty much screwed. Rondel to the neck or armpit, I'd figure. Or crushing weapon to the head. So, it's less that they're immobilized by the weight, and more that they're in somewhat bulky armor. Not saying that they'd be better off in, say, chain mail or leather or whatever.

I suppose it's also worth noting that footknights also are at least occasionally depicted in contemporary paintings as wearing full plate as well, such as the painting of the Battle of Barnet (where Littlefinger...er...Warwick dies). Anyway, TV shows rarely do this, I'm guessing, because even buying cheap plate for a bunch of actors will be really expensive, or will just look...you know...cheap. Kinda like how the Jaffa are initially depicted as being in this pseudo-futuristic mix of plate and chain mail on Stargate SG-1, but if you look closely, it's obviously just plastic and, I dunno, silver-painted wool or something.


I think your analysis is spot on, with a couple of comments:

-- It will be interesting to see how the eventual revelation that Jon is actually a Baratheon ******* (the son of Lyanna Stark and Robert Baratheon) will play out politically. I'm convinced Dany will take the iron throne, but will there be tension because he's technically a Baratheon? Or will he bend the knee and end up on her king's guard?

-- I think Tyrion will survive the whole story and remain hand of the queen (and get his vineyard). But will Varis be master of whispers? I hope so, because there's none better, but I have my suspicions that he's going to make the ultimate sacrifice for Dany at some point. Just a feeling.

-- I agree about Littlefinger. Saw that one coming a mile away, and the previews make it quite clear that he wants to marry her in return. I can't imagine Sansa saying yes, because that would make him warden of the north *and* defacto lord of the Vale, which would be suckacious on many levels. Not to mention, I'm sure she's quite done with strategic marriages, thank you very much. So what will happen when Littlefinger is spurned? Or, will the threat of being suddenly left with no troops to defend Winterfell compel her to marry him after all (and hold out for the moon door option)?

Re: Jon's parentage, I think the bulk of the fandom believes that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. Particularly because that upends Robert's narrative of the tale, explains why Ned kept the secret so long, and how it fits into the overall issue of who's the rightful heir. If Jon and Dany married and -- especially -- if they had children, the two of them would basically restore the Targaeryan dynasty. Right now, Dany's attitude is to "break the wheel" and change how the system works, which makes me think that there'd be some governmental reforms, but I don't think she's suddenly going to, like, create a House of Commons. They don't even have an established council of barons in Westeros, so the notion that they could just have peasants governing themselves is ludicrous.

Re: Tyrion, yeah, I think he'll survive. I certainly hope he does. He's one of my favorite characters. Not sure what exactly will become of him, other than, say, his vineyard, but I think he'll survive. No idea if Varys will be Dany's Master of Whispers.

Re: Littlefinger, yeah, I don't think he's long for this world, and I do think that his love for Sansa/Catelyn will ultimately be his downfall. However, what you propose is actually, technically, even trickier. Littlefinger is the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands (the title previously held by the Tullys). While the Freys have inherited the Tullys' home (Riverrun) and their title to the high lordship of Riverrun and its surrounding counties, the Lord Paramountcy of the Riverlands is now Littlefinger's. Marrying Sansa would effectively put him in control of the entire northern half of the continent. He'd rule the North (with Sansa), the Vale (through Robin), and the Riverlands (in his own right) from Harrenhal. He'd have immense strategic advantages, at least insofar as he'd want to just secede and fight a defensive war. The Vale is basically impossible to take on foot. The Riverlands are difficult to move armies through (except by boat), and act as a buffer zone for the Neck, which is the gateway to the North. The North itself is massive. As Littlefinger himself points out, it's larger than the rest of the Seven Kingdoms combined! So, he'd be in a really, really strong position....which is why I don't think he's gonna pull this off. It would upset the narrative way too much. More likely he just ends up outmaneuvered and played by Sansa. Plus, Cersei, way back when Sansa was at court, taught her that she should use her charms as her weapons.

Good point, and it's admittedly a deduction on my part. But Robert Baratheon was desperately in love with her, and Ned would have had a doubly overriding motive to protect Jon if he were another of Robert's bastards (as well as his nephew). The curly black hair is only circumstantial, since Bran, Benjen, and Robb are/were also black-haired.
But the real clincher for me is the way the two producers convinced GRRM that they were the guys to do the show. He asked them who Jon Snow's mother is, and they gave him the right answer. The question itself rules out Ned's "I fell into a hooker" story, and leads (IMO) straight to Lyanna. As to the father, there's never been (IIRC) any reference to Targaryen bastards; but Robert Baratheon had an army of them. So it's quite possible that Jon is one more. In that sense, I'm going more on what hasn't been said than what has, because silence can speak volumes.

Jon being Rhaegar's son doesn't invalidate the notion that Lyanna is his mother. I think it's pretty obvious that she's his mother, and died in childbirth. I also think that subverting Robert's purported love of her and his version of what happened, as well as having her truly love Rhaegar, makes the entire rise of the Baratheon's that much more tragic. They plunged the country into war because Robert was pissed at Rhaegar for stealing (and in his mind, raping) Lyanna. The Targaeryan's fell for a reason that wasn't even real. While Robert is already depicted as being morally ambiguous, I think this even further calls into question his character and the very nature of the realm we see at the start of the series: a kingdom built on a war, which was itself built on a misconception. (And if you want to get punny about it, which resulted in a conception that will ultimately help end the wars.)

I said the exact same thing while watching this. I have no military experience, but even I know that the smart move would be to have the giant open a hole for you. He just stood there swatting at things. He could have easily grabbed a bunch of pikes and snapped them. I go over and watch this with my dad and he said the guy should have picked up a dead horse and swung it as a weapon or something. I think the writers didn't think that through because they needed X to happen, but had to ignore the capability of John's assets to make it happen.

Yeah, that's pretty much the entire battle: we need X to happen because it looks cool, not because it makes a lick of miltary sense. And, to be fair, in the moment (other than complaining that Jon and his troops were being idiots in general), I mostly wasn't thinking about this stuff. The Wun Wun thing stood out, though....as Wun Wun tends to do.

All very valid points, and quite plausible. I don't happen to agree, but no matter -- we're at most 11 episodes away from finding out one way or the other. :)

HEY -- changing the subject, know what I just realized we haven't seen yet? Spiders, big as houses. :)

The spiders could still be coming. But I'm guessing probably not. We haven't seen snarks and grumpkins either, and I kinda doubt we will. Undead horses, though, work in a pinch.


That was AWESOME.




Another thought:

There are still several dangling plotlines this season that have been raised and then -- oh look! A shiny penny!

1. What the hell is happening in Dorne? At the start of the season, the Dornish basically killed their ruler because he was doing nothing....and then they did nothing. What are they doing?! What's going on with that plotline?

2. Arya still needs to go to Westeros.

3. We still need to see Cersei's trial -- which will apparently NOT be by combat.

4. We still need to see what's up with the Hound.

5. We still need to see if Dany will FINALLY get the hell out of Iraq.

6. We still need to find out what's gonna happen with Jaime.

7. We have no idea where Brienne is headed.

I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff, too. I guess it just seems like there's still a LOT to deal with in this show, and we only have one episode left this season to do it. The Dornish thing is, in my opinion, the most mis-managed aspect of all of this. The books handled this a lot better, I thought, although even those have yet to bear real fruit.
 
Arya and the hound are gonna meet up again. Yet this time they will good partners instead of in gonna kill ya later partners. They both will head her home.

Jamie is gonna head back to kings landing to choke his sister out before she lights up the neighborhood after the mountain wrecks n effects the king and sparrow. They gonna hand something down on her big from the court jury. She is gonna unleash the beast on them.

dany and friends are gonna be on a boat ride. Which is gonna run into the iron island championship row team Capt. By the uncle. Thus a navy battle will break out among them over sis and no dick.

Sam will run while daddy and his army chase him all the way to Jon snow. At that point the frosty army will almost be there just after bran shows up.

Brienne went to jobby nooner ( for you Detroit area folks) lol. I would think she is returning to Sansa

no clue on the sand snakes. It's been a real let down
 
My random thoughts, in no particular order...

- Terrible strategies aside, that was one of the most emotionally draining shows I have ever watched. The battle was incredible and horrifying. To see the futility of that battle was just heart wrenching.

- You'd think at some point, Bolton's archers would realize that if he had them shooting his own cavalry, he would not hesitate to kill them as well.

- I hate that Karstark beat the snot out of Tormund like that. I thought WIldlings were supposed to be vicious in a fight like that.

- You could see the Rohirrim, I mean Knights of the Vale, riding to save the day miles away. Still made for a dramatic entrance.

- Are there any people left in the north now? That battle effectively eliminated any organized army. Where are the wives and the children of the soldiers that died?

- I don't think Sansa knew about the Vale coming to the rescue. Littlefinger had already given the order to have them ride north before the Starks decided to take the fight to Winterfell.

- I think Sans will beat Little finger at his own game, and gain the upper hand over him. Jon made it out of the battle for a reason. He has a bigger part to play.

- The previews make it look like the Red Woman had or has a part to play. Davos is grilling her about "her". I bet it's about Shireen.

- When Dany told the masters they were mistaken and they were really there for the terms of their own surrender was awesome. While I wanted to see the dragons burn the entire fleet, it made sense to capture the fleet.

- Also disappointing it took 3 dragons to burn one ship loaded with flammable materials.

- How many people could there possibly be in the Iron Isles? The Greyjoys took a good chunk off them. Who is left to sail Euron's fleet? Nonetheless, I see his fleet meeting Dany's on the open water, and I see the dragon horn coming into play.

- Seeing the Stark banners was awesome.
 
You don't need a spoiler tag for the guess game. It's cool

Tormund was tired. The poor man had to run across a whole battlefield. Dodge multi arrows and horses. Had Fight off how many soldiers and possible turf toe until the sheild wall came into effect. Then he got stab in the arm/ shoulder by a spear. His homeboys pulled him back into the middle to protect him. Only to turn around to find more soldiers raining down of the dead pile hill. Which karstark just might have rode his pony down there and beat up a few weak and dying men. Tormund being the dude he is figured He'll fight this guy killing all his boys. He took a hell of beating before and during that fight. Yet still pulled off the win after all that. If I could give him a heavy weight championship belt I would. Someone better get him more of that moonshine crap to drink. Also I think Brienne would have been impressed by his fighting skills.
 
Re: Jon's parentage, I think the bulk of the fandom believes that Jon is Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. Particularly because that upends Robert's narrative of the tale, explains why Ned kept the secret so long, and how it fits into the overall issue of who's the rightful heir. If Jon and Dany married and -- especially -- if they had children, the two of them would basically restore the Targaeryan dynasty. Right now, Dany's attitude is to "break the wheel" and change how the system works, which makes me think that there'd be some governmental reforms, but I don't think she's suddenly going to, like, create a House of Commons. They don't even have an established council of barons in Westeros, so the notion that they could just have peasants governing themselves is ludicrous.
I've certainly always believed that Lyanne was his mom, but I always thought he was a Baratheon *******. However, your argument makes for much juicier storytelling, and GRRM is nothing if not juicy. I mean, just look at him. :p

Re: Littlefinger, yeah, I don't think he's long for this world, and I do think that his love for Sansa/Catelyn will ultimately be his downfall. However, what you propose is actually, technically, even trickier. Littlefinger is the Lord Paramount of the Riverlands (the title previously held by the Tullys). While the Freys have inherited the Tullys' home (Riverrun) and their title to the high lordship of Riverrun and its surrounding counties, the Lord Paramountcy of the Riverlands is now Littlefinger's. Marrying Sansa would effectively put him in control of the entire northern half of the continent. He'd rule the North (with Sansa), the Vale (through Robin), and the Riverlands (in his own right) from Harrenhal. He'd have immense strategic advantages, at least insofar as he'd want to just secede and fight a defensive war. The Vale is basically impossible to take on foot. The Riverlands are difficult to move armies through (except by boat), and act as a buffer zone for the Neck, which is the gateway to the North. The North itself is massive. As Littlefinger himself points out, it's larger than the rest of the Seven Kingdoms combined! So, he'd be in a really, really strong position....which is why I don't think he's gonna pull this off. It would upset the narrative way too much. More likely he just ends up outmaneuvered and played by Sansa. Plus, Cersei, way back when Sansa was at court, taught her that she should use her charms as her weapons.
I'd forgotten all about Harrenhal. I don't think it's come up on the show since season 1, and I haven't read the books since '12. You, sir, know your Westerosi geopolitics. :) I hoped Sansa would say no just because it would be her third loveless (and/or horrifying) marriage, but now I see she has an overriding strategic reason to put her foot down. She's been very smart up till now, there's no way she'll make a blunder like that. My big concern, as I said, is that Pinky will withdraw the knights and leave Winterfell naked. Which would make great drama, and fit the victory -reversal-defeat pattern we've seen for six years now.

Jon being Rhaegar's son doesn't invalidate the notion that Lyanna is his mother. I think it's pretty obvious that she's his mother, and died in childbirth. I also think that subverting Robert's purported love of her and his version of what happened, as well as having her truly love Rhaegar, makes the entire rise of the Baratheon's that much more tragic. They plunged the country into war because Robert was pissed at Rhaegar for stealing (and in his mind, raping) Lyanna. The Targaeryan's fell for a reason that wasn't even real. While Robert is already depicted as being morally ambiguous, I think this even further calls into question his character and the very nature of the realm we see at the start of the series: a kingdom built on a war, which was itself built on a misconception. (And if you want to get punny about it, which resulted in a conception that will ultimately help end the wars.)
I certainly didn't think Lyanna's motherhood ruled out Rhaegar's parentage, only that Baratheon's made sense. But again, your argument is much juicier, and certainly throws the largest possible wrench into the gears down the road -- both good reasons to believe it. And Jon + Dany would also de facto unite the Targaeryens and the Starks, regardless of lineage. After all, his half-sister is now Wardeness of the North. Talk about a power play.

Yeah, that's pretty much the entire battle: we need X to happen because it looks cool, not because it makes a lick of miltary sense. And, to be fair, in the moment (other than complaining that Jon and his troops were being idiots in general), I mostly wasn't thinking about this stuff. The Wun Wun thing stood out, though....as Wun Wun tends to do.
There's one other possibility: the writers intended to maximise the size of Jon's blunder (so to speak) by having him waste his biggest force multiplier. Wun Wun is in the worst possible place -- the center -- where he can be enveloped by pikemen. Among other possibilities, he could have been deployed on the flanks to disrupt and roll up as many archers or horsemen as possible. Certainly not a victory-maker by itself, but a much better use of the asset.

The spiders could still be coming. But I'm guessing probably not. We haven't seen snarks and grumpkins either, and I kinda doubt we will. Undead horses, though, work in a pinch.
Man, I hope you're wrong. I really, really wanted to see those spiders. :)


1. What the hell is happening in Dorne? At the start of the season, the Dornish basically killed their ruler because he was doing nothing....and then they did nothing. What are they doing?! What's going on with that plotline?

2. Arya still needs to go to Westeros.

3. We still need to see Cersei's trial -- which will apparently NOT be by combat.

4. We still need to see what's up with the Hound.

5. We still need to see if Dany will FINALLY get the hell out of Iraq.

6. We still need to find out what's gonna happen with Jaime.

7. We have no idea where Brienne is headed.
1. No idea. We also haven't seen Sam in the Citadel, but at least there's the white raven in the previews. Though in that shot it's headed for Winterfell, not King's Landing. Varys, OTOH, likely is headed to King's Landing, and I'm really hoping that scene plays out as it did in the books.

2. She will, perhaps not this season though. Gotta save something for next season. I'm betting she'll be the one to, um... slice off the Pinky. ;) Just making a point. :p I'm a stickler :p :p Okay, I'll stop now.

3. And don't forget, Cercei still has her usual ace in the hole. Among other things. :p

4. I have this nagging suspicion he's going to wind up with Brienne (out of sheer respect), if she'll have him (honor and stuff). But the "ugly should be with ugly" aspect disturbs me as being far too Cartmanesque. Besides, as the better all-around human being, Brienne would be getting the short end of that stick. Figuratively speaking, of course, as we learned last week. ;)

5. Of course she will, and soon, once she secures her eastern queendom properly. She's really lusting after that Westerosi oil. The shale sands of Riverrun alone could buy her a whole flock of dragons. :p Still gotta watch out for those terrorists from the Iran Islands. :p

6. If Cercei dies, maybe he'll end up with Brienne (I hope so). It would be the ultimate return to honor for him. I'm hoping Dany won't execute him for a certain king slaying. :)

7. Definitely Winterfell, by way of wherever Jon's army was last camped. She's quite smart, and hasn't lost her way yet. Not for long, anyway. And of course her failure with the Blackfish is now entirely moot.
 
1. No idea. We also haven't seen Sam in the Citadel, but at least there's the white raven in the previews. Though in that shot it's headed for Winterfell, not King's Landing. Varys, OTOH, likely is headed to King's Landing, and I'm really hoping that scene plays out as it did in the books.

Can you refresh my memory on what happens in the books?
 
Can you refresh my memory on what happens in the books?

Varys goes back to King's Landing and has Kevan Lannister murdered because he was undoing much of the chaos that Varys' plans counted on.
 
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