Revisiting the old ESB screws vs rivets grips question :)

James Kenobi 1138 said:

First I don't think screen caps of the Wampa cave scene are HD enough to determine the size/shape of the fasteners.

Also, I had another thought. Go back and re-watch the Wampa cave scene.

We know there were 2 different Lightsaber props used in the Wampa cave scene. We know there was a regular Hero prop, and we know there was a bladed Stunt prop.

How do we know this? We can see by going frame by frame that a non-bladed Hero goes from the snow to Luke's hand. Most likely Mark threw the saber from his hand into the snow and the footage was run in reverse to make the saber go the other direction (Lucas and the editors used this trick several times in the OT).

Second, we have set photos of Mark holding a partially bladed Stunt saber in the Wampa cave set.

Now, go back and watch the Wampa scene again. Notice that the saber in the snow is shown from 2 different angles: from Luke's point of view, and from the side (forth wall view).

When Luke goes to use the force to retrieve his Lightsaber the saber moves. Look at the movement. The saber goes 'back and forth' (front to back) yet the snow is not disturbed. This is true for both Luke's POV and the side POV.

The easiest way to get this movement is to use the BLADED STUNT SABER with the blade rod attached and have a crew member hold the end of the Stunt blade and jiggle the saber back and forth slightly and move it in the snow.

That's why the front of the saber is not visible. There is a Stunt blade attached. This makes the most sense and would have been the easiest to film.

I'm not sure the Lightsaber we see in the snow was actually the same hero Lightsaber we see on Luke's belt on Bespin.

The grips on the Wampa cave saber look somewhat worn and the top fin/edge of the grips look slightly shorter than the Hero saber seen on Bespin or in the ILM Luke Skywalker promotional images.

This may account for different fasteners being used. Plus the Wampa cave was not filed in Norway, it was a set built in England that could be the reason for the changes.

I think the Wampa cave Lightsaber was a Stunt and not a Hero.

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Those are interesting theories but theories none the less.
What we do have is a screencap that clearly shoes a screw of some type witth tall bubble-like profile head shape which is far more common among screws than rivets.
As for the actual size that cannont be determined, only the profile shape of the head is what im discussing.

Excellent assumptions based on pictures ... such as seen here above, you have a stage hand
wiggling the stunt saber on the right

Chaïm

DARTH SABER said:

Those are interesting theories but theories none the less.
What we do have is a screencap that clearly shoes a screw of some type witth tall bubble-like profile head shape which is far more common among screws than rivets.
As for the actual size that cannont be determined, only the profile shape of the head is what im discussing.

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You and I differ greatly on the definition of the word 'clearly'.

If the evidence presented in the Thread was 'clear' (BTW these are the same photos we're been looking at for 20 years) this wouldn't be a debate.

Everyone always wants to see what they want to see until a better image comes along. If you believe the grips in the Wampa cave have screws in them then by all means please use screws in your prop replica.

But please don't say the evidence is 'clear'. Again, if it was, the grip fasteners wouldn't be in question.

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Sym-Cha said:

http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/...5926708_7968336988514689128_n_zps29f307b2.jpg

Excellent assumptions based on pictures ... such as seen here above, you have a stage hand wiggling the stunt saber on the right

Chaïm

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Yes. Exactly.

James Kenobi 1138 said:

You and I differ greatly on the definition of the word 'clearly'.

If the evidence presented in the Thread was 'clear' (BTW these are the same photos we're been looking at for 20 years) this wouldn't be a debate.

Everyone always wants to see what they want to see until a better image comes along. If you believe the grips in the Wampa cave have screws in them then by all means please use screws in your prop replica.

But please don't say the evidence is 'clear'. Again, if it was, the grip fasteners wouldn't be in question.

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Yes. Exactly.

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If it were something as small as the hole on the head of the fastener i could understand your argument.
The hole is hard to determine because the surrounding metal either reflects light or it is so dark with lack of contrast that makes it hard to see if theres a circle, a hex slot, or a philips slot.
This is the detail that most people have been looking to determine what kind of fastener was used.

The head profile of the fastener is an entirely different issue.
It has a clear edge shape, it is much bigger than a simple hole on the head and easier to identify.

Im sorry but the image i posted does clearly show the outline of the head profile. You can even see that the profile height of the head takes up about 1/2 or 3/4 of the height if the grip fin.
There is nothing obstructing the height of the head. The shape of the head ends and there is snow in the background which offers an excellent contrast of light to determine its edge.

I still maintain this is some sort of screw since I have yet to find a rivet with such a head.

DARTH SABER said:

Im sorry but the image i posted does clearly show the outline of the head profile.

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You and I differ greatly on the definition of the word 'clearly'.

If the evidence presented in the Thread was 'clear' (BTW these are the same photos we're been looking at for 20 years) this wouldn't be a debate.

But please don't say the evidence is 'clear'. Again, if it was, the grip fasteners wouldn't be in question.

DARTH SABER said:

I still maintain this is some sort of screw since I have yet to find a rivet with such a head.

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And this is totally cool that you think that. Many other people think the same. Others think it's a pop rivet because that is what they 'clearly' see.

Everyone always wants to see what they want to see until a better image comes along. If you believe the grips in the Wampa cave have screws in them then by all means please use screws in your prop replica.

But please don't say the evidence is 'clear'. Again, if it was, the grip fasteners wouldn't be in question.

BTW, for the record I don't know if they are screws or rivets.

I've poured over all the available photos for YEARS looking and sometimes it looks like rivets, other times it looks like screws. Sometimes it looks like both in different shots of the same scene.

I believe strongly we don't yet have a definitive answer on screws vs rivets. I say use what you want, what you like, what you think it is, and you're probably as right as the next guy.

I wouldn't be shocked if there were versions of either. We'all never know for sure. I also spin out thinking on how we spot different versions due to differences. There could be more than we realize that actually match.

James Kenobi 1138 said:

You and I differ greatly on the definition of the word 'clearly'.

If the evidence presented in the Thread was 'clear' (BTW these are the same photos we're been looking at for 20 years) this wouldn't be a debate.

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Thts not entirely true.
Ive been in several threads where ive pointed out something, or someobe else has pointed out something, that was clear to me or them, that was met with debate only to settled on a confirmation.

But please don't say the evidence is 'clear'. Again, if it was, the grip fasteners wouldn't be in question.



And this is totally cool that you think that. Many other people think the same. Others think it's a pop rivet because that is what they 'clearly' see.

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Everyone always wants to see what they want to see until a better image comes along. [/quote]

So youre saying you dont see the bubble shaped head on the screencap?
Do you not see the dome shape head and the contrast of the snow behind it?
You dont see the height of the head being a considerable height in comparions to the grip fins?

Youre saying That m imagining that?

If you believe the grips in the Wampa cave have screws in them then by all means please use screws in your prop replica.

But please don't say the evidence is 'clear'. Again, if it was, the grip fasteners wouldn't be in question.

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Im sorry but it is clear to me, so i shall say its clear.
I will concede that the other photos of the holes on the head are not ao clear, but to me this is clear as day.

thus far theres nothing to explain away the shape of the head or its height on the screencap.
Theres been no proof of rivet heads with that particular shape, even though theyve been suggested to exist, abd Ive even done an image search based on your suggestion.


I know you say that we simply cant make a confirmation on the shape of the head based on the quality of the photos.
By that logic, his thread shouldnt even exists since photos are the only means to examine this particular saber and the photos are of poor quality,l.
so then what is the purpose of this thread?

And exactly how do we determine the level of clarity on a photo before a confirmation can be made?


Ill post more details later.

Do you remember when the 7th grip was discovered on the Luke ANH saber?
Do you remember which photo confirmed the 7th grip?

DARTH SABER said:

Thts not entirely true.
Ive been in several threads where ive pointed out something, or someobe else has pointed out something, that was clear to me or them, that was met with debate only to settled on a confirmation.

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"I've done this before so I'm right about this".

Sounds Legit.

DARTH SABER said:

So youre saying you dont see the bubble shaped head on the screencap?
Do you not see the dome shape head and the contrast of the snow behind it?
You dont see the height of the head being a considerable height in comparions to the grip fins?

Youre saying That m imagining that?

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No, I don't see what you're seeing. I'm saying if this is your absolutely proof-positive, clear as day, no one can argue, smoking gun evidence then you need a new gun.

DARTH SABER said:

So youre saying you dont see the bubble shaped head on the screencap?
Do you not see the dome shape head and the contrast of the snow behind it?
You dont see the height of the head being a considerable height in comparions to the grip fins?
Youre saying That m imagining that?

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This is what I see:

DARTH SABER said:

Im sorry but it is clear to me, so i shall say its clear.
I will concede that the other photos of the holes on the head are not ao clear, but to me this is clear as day.

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"This is what I see, and I'm telling everyone on the RPF this is what it is, so it's true'

Sounds Legit.

DARTH SABER said:

thus far theres nothing to explain away the shape of the head or its height on the screencap.
Theres been no proof of rivet heads with that particular shape, even though theyve been suggested to exist, abd Ive even done an image search based on your suggestion.

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"I can't prove you're right, so I'm right".

Sounds Legit.

This is what I've been saying, there is not enough proof either way (and certainly not enough proof in the photos in this Thread so say 'clearly' that it's screws or rivets).

DARTH SABER said:

I know you say that we simply cant make a confirmation on the shape of the head based on the quality of the photos.
By that logic, his thread shouldnt even exists since photos are the only means to examine this particular saber and the photos are of poor quality,l.
so then what is the purpose of this thread?

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"If there is not enough evidence why are we even debating this?"

Excellent deflection.

Again, I don't know what was used, that's why this issue has come up many times over the years. Again, the 'evidence' in this Thread and your photo do not clearly show either a screw or a rivet.

DARTH SABER said:

And exactly how do we determine the level of clarity on a photo before a confirmation can be made?

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When a photo or screen cap comes along that ends the debate due to the high quality and unmistakable clarity of the photo where virtually everyone agrees on the evidence presented in the image.

DARTH SABER said:

Ill post more details later.

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Most excellent, I'd love to know what was used on the prop so I can make my replica as accurate as the movie.

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DARTH SABER said:

Do you remember when the 7th grip was discovered on the Luke ANH saber?
Do you remember which photo confirmed the 7th grip?

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You discovered the 7th grip and the correct d-ring discovery on the ANH Luke saber. I was there. I remember. I discovered the Deathstar trench model piece was used for the Spacetrooper backpack.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.That doesn't mean someone who was right one time is always right.

James Kenobi 1138 said:

"I've done this before so I'm right about this".

Sounds Legit.



No, I don't see what you're seeing. I'm saying if this is your absolutely proof-positive, clear as day, no one can argue, smoking gun evidence then you need a new gun.

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rttfkkds...frdbrr/9/976173/4001324/02506289542356-vi.jpg



This is what I see:http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rttfkkds...tgdrkk/9/976173/4001324/58506289538911-vi.png




"This is what I see, and I'm telling everyone on the RPF this is what it is, so it's true'

Sounds Legit.



"I can't prove you're right, so I'm right".

Sounds Legit.

This is what I've been saying, there is not enough proof either way (and certainly not enough proof in the photos in this Thread so say 'clearly' that it's screws or rivets).



"If there is not enough evidence why are we even debating this?"

Excellent deflection.

Again, I don't know what was used, that's why this issue has come up many times over the years. Again, the 'evidence' in this Thread and your photo do not clearly show either a screw or a rivet.



When a photo or scree cap comes along that ends the debate due to the high quality and unmistakable clarity of the photo where virtually everyone agrees on the evidence presented in the image.



Most excellent, I'd love to know what was used on the prop so I can make my replica as accurate as the movie.

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You discovered the 7th grip and the correct d-ring discovery on the ANH Luke saber. I was there. I remember. I discovered the Deathstar trench model piece was used for the Spacetrooper backpack.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

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I did not discover the one 7th grip.

I asked if you remember the photo that confirmed the 7th grip.

I remember the thread, not all the intimate details. I've slept since then. It was so long ago Chip from EDC was doing computer renders to help show the 7th grip.

for all this time I assume they taped a pole to the tip of the hero to pull off that wampa scene. the Stunt makes a lot more sense to me too. it would explain the horribly deformed grips on this thing.

James Kenobi 1138 said:

"I've done this before so I'm right about this".

Sounds Legit.

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Thats not what I said...But thanks for making that up

No, I don't see what you're seeing. I'm saying if this is your absolutely proof-positive, clear as day, no one can argue, smoking gun evidence then you need a new gun.

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rttfkkds...frdbrr/9/976173/4001324/02506289542356-vi.jpg



This is what I see:http://media.fotki.com/1_p,rttfkkds...tgdrkk/9/976173/4001324/58506289538911-vi.png

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Yeah, Im sure its just a piece of lint causing a light reflection on all 4 grips, on the exact same spot, creating the exact same shape...What are the odds?

"This is what I see, and I'm telling everyone on the RPF this is what it is, so it's true'

Sounds Legit.

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"Well my claim that rivets also have dome head failed, so I need to abandon that and Ill claim the reflection on the grip is just an anomoly. I wont even entertain the the possibility that its a screw head..I will also decide how clear a photo must be to confirm a claim"

I can't prove you're right, so I'm right".

Sounds Legit.

This is what I've been saying, there is not enough proof either way (and certainly not enough proof in the photos in this Thread so say 'clearly' that it's screws or rivets)."

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So basically you get to decide if the photo is clear enough to decide, based on whether you can see it??

"If there is not enough evidence why are we even debating this?"

Excellent deflection.

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Speaking of deflection, where are those fat headed rivets you were speaking?
That argument vanished in the wind.
You claimed there were rivets out there that matched the head in the photo...So where are they?

Now lets see, when i posted the photo you said nothing about the picture not being clear enough...As a matter of fact you said there were rivets out there which have that same head shape...Obviously you saw the shape in the image I posted or else you wouldn't have made the claim about the rivets.
Then, when no rivets matching that shape could be found, you brought up theories about other possible lightsabers used during that scene, which has nothing to do with the issue regarding the fastener on this particular saber.. (Deflection?)
Then, all of a sudden, the picture was too fuzzyto make out the shape, and the shape was nothing more than a dent in the grip.
Keep pushing that goalpost and you'll be in the bleachers soon.

Again, I don't know what was used, that's why this issue has come up many times over the years. Again, the 'evidence' in this Thread and your photo do not clearly show either a screw or a rivet.

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I didnt ask you what was used.

When a photo or screen cap comes along that ends the debate due to the high quality and unmistakable clarity of the photo where virtually everyone agrees on the evidence presented in the image.

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Really?
The 7 grip debate started with a photo that didnt show seven grips and wasnt confirmed by the clarity of the photos....it was confirmed by deductive reasoning and process of elimination.
Spacing between grips was too small= thus 7 grips...And those photos were also fuzzy.
Shape of fastener head is tall and bulbous = thus not likely rivets.

see how it works?

You discovered the 7th grip and the correct d-ring discovery on the ANH Luke saber. I was there. I remember. I discovered the Deathstar trench model piece was used for the Spacetrooper backpack.

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I never discovered the 7th grip nor did I claim I did.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.That doesn't mean someone who was right one time is always right.

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But apparently someone who's too blind to see the clock would be able to tell when that clock is right or wrong?

Hey champ, you can do whatever you want. Seriously. It's totally cool.

Rivets or screws, screws or rivets, whatever you want is fine. I really don't care. But to believe the only rivets that have ever existed are the ones you can find makes you look foolish in my opinion, but not as foolish (in my opinion) as the photo you're posting as your smoking gun of evidence.

I don't know if they are rivets or screws as I don't think enough evidence has been conclusively shown for either. It makes no difference to me if the actual real prop has screws or rivets but I would like to find out and have the answer to a long-sought prop myth solved.

But if you think that fuzzy, low-res photo shows one way or the other then Lord help you and bless your heart because I can't help you.

Believe what you want, but stop making definitive statements like you know anything for a fact. You have an opinion and it's not any more or less valid than anyone else's opinion at this point.

There is no deflection. Rivets come in many styles. Not all are still available but examples of different styles can be found online. That's a fact. We looked and found examples of different but similar sink knobs and grenades for a long time until we found the right style. The same may be true of the rivets. Or not. Or it was screws. Who knows?

Saying I'm blind to your photo 'proof' is crazy hilarious. I'm saying I don't believe that photo shows either way. You are saying it's 100% a fact. It's nice to see your opinion is right and my opinion is rubbish because it's not the same as yours.

But if you're betting the farm based on that photo, bless your heart. Bless your heart buddy.

I did take some time tonight to go through some photos I have on my HD that I will post up to add to the discussion. I'd love to know screws vs rivets myself.

The only thing I'm willing to say for certain is that whatever is used, it seems to vary between silver and black. Whether that is because they are different fasteners, or if the silver ones were painted black, or the black ones wore down to silver-- I don't know.

My gut tells me that a production dude in a hurry is going to use screws, and maybe a sharpie if they didn't want the silver to show-- but I have no real proof of that.

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I've never been able to tell anything from those snow pics.

matty matt said:

I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I've never been able to tell anything from those snow pics.

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agreed, i still go by the R2 bump scene and the snow speeder scene :wacko

Clearly too small to make out any details but this does show that the fasteners were silver at one point. This photo is from Elstree studios after the Norway shoot.



Similar type photo. Difficult to see anything but if you look at the left most grip it's in profile and the head of the fastener does not appear to stick out very far but it's really too small to tell anything.



Best/biggest version of this I could find. Bladed Stunt and not the Hero, but this could have been the saber in the Wampa cave. I believe this is a post production publicity photo. Note the fasteners are silver and this version has the Kobold d-ring.



Mark with the Bladed Stunt in the Wampa cave. Note the tape on the clamp.



Norway no fasteners or black fasteners, Elstree silver fasteners?



In this photo from Norway it looks like there are no notches cut in the grips at all.



Publicity photo, the fastener on the right appears to be domed shaped.



Publicity photo. The fastener on the top appears dome shaped while the one on the bottom appears much flatter.



I did not make this, it's from many years ago.



I thought it would be good to show some photos of a saber where we know for a fact it's screws so we can look at how the screw head looks compared to the grip.

In this photo the screw on the left looks very small and flat, not domed at all, but the one on the right appears much more domed shaped.



In this photo there is a big difference in how the top screw and bottom screw appear based on the angle.



In this photo both screws appear very dome shaped.



Another photo where the top screw appears very flat and the lower screw appears much larger.



Fasteners appear silver here:


But darker here: