Revisiting the old ESB screws vs rivets grips question :)

Thanks guys! I feel just like Homer Simpson! "I'm smart - S-M-R-T".

ARKM said:

Ah but did the security/temper proof versions of torx and Allen screws exist in the early 80s?

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In there like a Jedi buddy!...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torx#Variants "1967 says Wiki"

Ok, as futile as this may be....I went and grabbed a screen cap again.
Some things to take note of-

* look at the rivet/screw in the top grip. Notice how tall the profile of the rivet/screw head is.

* look at the shape of the rivet/screw head.
Domed top that gradually curves underneath. Not a domed head with a sharp cut at the bottom of the head.

This strongly suggests to me a pan head screw of some type.




I also noticed something else.
Is it me or does the uppermost end of the kobold clip look like its been filed to down to a curve?
I know the Kobold has a concave face which could account for the curve but even with the concave face the curve shouldnt be that pronounced.

Also, does anyone know the length measurement of a genuine Kobold clip?

Not sure if this will help anyone or not but here is a pic of five screenshots ripped digitally from blu-ray to PC with no resizing or post processing effects (just cropping). Click to enlarge.

russellsch said:

I heard Lucasfilm has a finished 4k cut of ANH right now. Hopefully they'll do a 4K of Empire & Jedi, & then release them. That way we can see the props better, & end this destructive conflict!

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It was finished in 2012 by Reliance Media. Perhaps someone could e-mail them and ask them

ARKM said:

Not sure if this will help anyone or not but here is a pic of five screenshots ripped digitally from blu-ray to PC with no resizing or post processing effects (just cropping). Click to enlarge.

View attachment 697890

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Thanks!
Those are great!

This might sound silly, but because rivets were used for the d-ring and since I always thought the tracks were fastened with rivets, I *want* them to be rivets.

I know I can build mine with rivets and be content, but I do also wish there'd be a definite answer either way.

Maybe one day the mystery will be solved…

Regarding the color of the rivets-

Is it possible the screws/rivets werent actually painted black but they were darkened using something like Aluminum Black?

Anyone whos used Aluminum Black knows that when the metal is blackened by this process it still retains its reflective nature which would reflect light at the right angle.
It also tends to rub off occasssionally with heavy handling.

DARTH SABER said:

Regarding the color of the rivets-

Is it possible the screws/rivets werent actually painted black but they were darkened using something like Aluminum Black?

Anyone whos used Aluminum Black knows that when the metal is blackened by this process it still retains its reflective nature which would reflect light at the right angle.
It also tends to rub off occasssionally with heavy handling.

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I've been giving this color issue a lot more thought lately.

I'm a cameraman working in the film/tv industry; Many times when something small needs to be blacked out or darkened (Greeked), a plain old black sharpie is brought out and applied to the item. Sharpie tends to wear off of metal objects leaving reflective surfaces behind.

It's been mentioned by some that the fasteners weren't supposed to be seen on film, merely there as a fastener only and not a design element.

Just theorizing here but, I think it's possible that given the fast pace on set, the prop guys may have just used sharpie on rivets/screw heads.

It may very well have been aluminum black but Im just putting another possibility out there as the Sharpie method is done a lot on set to save time.

Panaflex said:

Seems like it changed throughout production

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Depending on the material and circumstances, that's quite possible. It might be more than one prop (allmost certain), screw/rivets could have been coloured like Panflex suggested because they looked wrong when filming a scene (likely), the grip could have been repaired after filming in cold or damp (Hoth/Dagobah) (at least not unthinkable) or the screws/rivets themselves could have oxidized after filming the afore-mentioned scenes (again within the realm of the possible).

Considering when and where TESB was filmed, I'm not convinced the phillips screw heads were original, though. I would think slotted screws or pop-rivets being more likely.

The only thing we can confirm 100% is rivets is on the pommel correct? (for ANH and ESB)...everywhere else its screws...now thing about how thin the pommel is of the flex, it would be a pain to run a screw and nut, or thread, but perfect for pop riveting, so its more necessity.

Also almost all repro graflex sabers in books and stuff use screws....I dunno black philips screws are really starting to seem right.

Friendly flyer said:

Depending on the material and circumstances, that's quite possible. It might be more than one prop (allmost certain), screw/rivets could have been coloured like Panflex suggested because they looked wrong when filming a scene (likely), the grip could have been repaired after filming in cold or damp (Hoth/Dagobah) (at least not unthinkable) or the screws/rivets themselves could have oxidized after filming the afore-mentioned scenes (again within the realm of the possible).

Considering when and where TESB was filmed, I'm not convinced the phillips screw heads were original, though. I would think slotted screws or pop-rivets being more likely.

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Are there any rivets thst have a head with that thick of a profile?

Rivets heads are fairly flat though.
The shot with the lightsaber in the snow shows that the head profile seems way to thick to be a rivet.

There are literally hundreds of different styles of blind rivets with different head types made by dozens of manufactures.

Are there rivets with heads as big/thick as a screw head? Yes, absolutely, but not at Home Depot.

James Kenobi 1138 said:

There are literally hundreds of different styles of blind rivets with different head types made by dozens of manufactures.

Are there rivets with heads as big/thick as a screw head? Yes, absolutely, but not at Home Depot.

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So they decided to use a different rare style rivet than the ones used on the D-ring bracket?


I havent been able to find a rivet that matches that shape.

DARTH SABER said:

So they decided to use a different rare style rivet than the ones used on the D-ring bracket?
I havent been able to find a rivet that matches that shape.

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No, but we're looking for a modern equivalent to whatever the prop guys were using in 1979, 38 years ago, in England or Norway (if it was first fixed on Hoth).

Not to mention they might have been using an industrial fastener instead of a consumer rivet sold in a chain hardware store.

Google 'blind rivet head style' or 'pop rivet head style' or 'types of blind rivets' and you'll see so many different than the same vanilla ones they sell at Home Depot.

None of these rivets are 'super rare', if you know where to get them.

James Kenobi 1138 said:

No, but we're looking for a modern equivalent to whatever the prop guys were using in 1979, 38 years ago, in England or Norway (if it was first fixed on Hoth).

Not to mention they might have been using an industrial fastener instead of a consumer rivet sold in a chain hardware store.

Google 'blind rivet head style' or 'pop rivet head style' or 'types of blind rivets' and you'll see so many different than the same vanilla ones they sell at Home Depot.

None of these rivets are 'super rare', if you know where to get them.

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Seems to me If you have to search for them at a specialty shops then it already makes them far rarer than notmal screws which commonly have a head shaped like the one in the screen cap.

Screws with that head shape are found pretty much everywhere.


I think its pretty safe to say, for the sake of accuracy, that whatever screw (or rivet) was used it would have to have a head profile shaped something like this -





That alone would make the rievets that are commonly used for ESB lightsaber replicas innacurate.

I just did an image search for "blind rivet head style" and "pop rivet head style", and washt able to find a match for the screencap.

There was one that somewhat looked similar, but that was an illustration.

I think if you lean towards screws, the Exactra calculator screws seem like a good bet. They have the added benefit of being vintage parts that we know the prop department had available from ANH. It's been slow in coming but I'm going this route on my ESB.

The Sharpie suggestion makes sense to me.

I still have to just follow on-set logic. Self-driving screws and a sharpie is the fastest cheapest way to fix something onset. And if this was due to the cold making the grips pop off, it feels most logical in my mind.

Panaflex said:

I think if you lean towards screws, the Exactra calculator screws seem like a good bet. They have the added benefit of being vintage parts that we know the prop department had available from ANH. It's been slow in coming but I'm going this route on my ESB.

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This,

those certain type of pan head screws have a weirdly deep phillips socket for such a small head. My dad's Fender Twin Reverb guitar amplifier from the 70s has them also, I think they were used in a lot of electronic equipment at the time.

First I don't think screen caps of the Wampa cave scene are HD enough to determine the size/shape of the fasteners.

Also, I had another thought. Go back and re-watch the Wampa cave scene.

We know there were 2 different Lightsaber props used in the Wampa cave scene. We know there was a regular Hero prop, and we know there was a bladed Stunt prop.

How do we know this? We can see by going frame by frame that a non-bladed Hero goes from the snow to Luke's hand. Most likely Mark threw the saber from his hand into the snow and the footage was run in reverse to make the saber go the other direction (Lucas and the editors used this trick several times in the OT).

Second, we have set photos of Mark holding a partially bladed Stunt saber in the Wampa cave set.

Now, go back and watch the Wampa scene again. Notice that the saber in the snow is shown from 2 different angles: from Luke's point of view, and from the side (forth wall view).

When Luke goes to use the force to retrieve his Lightsaber the saber moves. Look at the movement. The saber goes 'back and forth' (front to back) yet the snow is not disturbed. This is true for both Luke's POV and the side POV.

The easiest way to get this movement is to use the BLADED STUNT SABER with the blade rod attached and have a crew member hold the end of the Stunt blade and jiggle the saber back and forth slightly and move it in the snow.

That's why the front of the saber is not visible. There is a Stunt blade attached. This makes the most sense and would have been the easiest to film.

I'm not sure the Lightsaber we see in the snow was actually the same hero Lightsaber we see on Luke's belt on Bespin.

The grips on the Wampa cave saber look somewhat worn and the top fin/edge of the grips look slightly shorter than the Hero saber seen on Bespin or in the ILM Luke Skywalker promotional images.

This may account for different fasteners being used. Plus the Wampa cave was not filed in Norway, it was a set built in England that could be the reason for the changes.

I think the Wampa cave Lightsaber was a Stunt and not a Hero.