E11 from Sterling Parts kit?

BobaFettSlave_1 said:

But at the same time, we know for a fact that a few of the original film sterling's have made it into private collections here in the states or are even still in the archives. What I'm interested in is how those have been turned into dummy guns.

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I'd bet with almost certainty that they have not been......

DL 44 Blaster said:

I'd bet with almost certainty that they have not been......

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The part where there arn't any in private collections located in the US or the part where theres none in the archives?

BobaFettSlave_1 said:

The part where there arn't any in private collections located in the US or the part where theres none in the archives?

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The part where they've been turned into dummy guns.

The only screenused sterlings I've ever heard of reaching private hands were dummies to begin with. (Like the ones taken to Tunisia with the cast lowers)

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Oh, and FWIW, Darkside has demilled/converted more Sterlings than any of us have had hot dinners. So he does not speak from a vacuum.

DL 44 Blaster said:

The part where they've been turned into dummy guns.

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Ahh ok.

"Tonight Agents with the BATF and FBI along side members of the State Police raided and confiscated in excess of 30 unregistered machine guns from the Lucas Archives located on Skywalker Ranch. Authorities detained a mister George Lucas, and elderly man dressed in a plad shirt, who is thought to be in connection with the firearms. A judge has set his bail at $3,000,000,000."

Treadwell said:

Oh, and FWIW, Darkside has demilled/converted more Sterlings than any of us have had hot dinners. So he does not speak from a vacuum.

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Oh my post wasnt to discredit or ignore his input in any way. It was much appreciated and Its likley what I'll do when it comes to the barrel. I was just stating that, law wise, the ATF only cares about the receiver and if it could ever be made into a MG ever again. Its about as clear as mud. The ATF has a "once a machine gun, always a machine gun" policy when it comes to receivers. They dont care about the internals. It all comes down to if it's capable of being "easily converted" back into a fireable weapon. But what defines "easily converted" in their eyes is whats not defined in writing.

There are no operable firearms in the archives. All the firing weapons were rented. (Stembridge in the US, Bapty in the UK)

Treadwell said:

There are no operable firearms in the archives. All the firing weapons were rented. (Stembridge in the US, Bapty in the UK)

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Naw, I think you're misunderstanding me. Im not saying there are 'fully functional' guns in the archives. What Im saying is there are more than likley demiled/dummy guns with fullly intact receivers from filming in the Uk in the archives. While they were considered demilled/dummy in the Uk, they may or may not technically be demilled in accordance with ATF law given the utter lack of a crystal clear definition on what is and is not a dummy gun when it comes to parts that once were machine guns

BobaFettSlave_1 said:

But at the same time, we know for a fact that a few of the original film sterling's have made it into private collections here in the states or are even still in the archives. What I'm interested in is how those have been turned into dummy guns.

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This is how a Bapty looks like - they were heavily modified not to be operable again, no trigger, the back and end butt was replaced by aluminum part etc:

Treadwell said:

The only screenused sterlings I've ever heard of reaching private hands were dummies to begin with. (Like the ones taken to Tunisia with the cast lowers)

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Oh, and FWIW, Darkside has demilled/converted more Sterlings than any of us have had hot dinners. So he does not speak from a vacuum.

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Which is why I bought one from him over 15 years ago. I felt even then that he was the go to man for Sterling conversions. Plus mine was only saw cut, not torched.:cool

BobaFettSlave_1 said:

Naw, I think you're misunderstanding me. Im not saying there are 'fully functional' guns in the archives. What Im saying is there are more than likley demiled/dummy guns with fullly intact receivers from filming in the Uk in the archives.

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No, those were rented, too. They brought back resin weapons only, at least from what I've seen in all my years of following this stuff to an unhealthy degree.

So the only issue I have with solely using DARKSIDES method of disabling the chamber of the barrel and permanently welding the barrel to the tube is when I read this answer on the ATF website
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/what-unserviceable-firearm

An unserviceable firearm is defined as one which is incapable of discharging a shot by means of an explosive and which is incapable of being readily restored to a firing condition.
An acceptable method of rendering most firearms unserviceable is to fusion weld the chamber closed and fusion weld the barrel solidly to the frame. Certain unusual firearms require other methods to render the firearms unserviceable.
An unserviceable NFA firearm is still subject to the controls of the NFA, but may be transferred tax free as a curio or ornament.

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In addition, here is the NFA's definition of what qualifies as a machine gun
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...-firearms-national-firearms-act-definitions-0

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act the term Machinegun means:
Any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger
The frame or receiver of any such weapon
Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively or combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, or
Any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

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If I understand this correctly, than if a Sterling were a regular old semi-auto or bolt/lever action or what ever have you firearm, then his method would be perfectly fine. Where the problem comes from is on two fronts. A real Sterling SMG falls under two qualifications making it a NFA item. Its a Machine Gun, and it's a Short Barreled Rifle. The ATF's policy of "Once a Machine gun, always a Machine gun" is why we here in the US cannot import demiled firearms from overseas and can only get a hold of torch cut parts kits. Whats unclear is if one were to do as DARKSIDE suggested (or even my method for that matter) would the moment that the receiver is welded back together still make it a "Unserviceable NFA Firearm" under those definitions as either a MG or a SBR. Which is why the incredibly vague definition of "readily convertible" really sucks.
It's even more confusing when I look at my own firearms collection. Take for instance my PTR-91 which is a US made semi-auto clone of the HK G3



On the left of this photo is the full auto receiver to a HK G3 (no not mine sadly) and on right is my PTR 91. The ONLY difference between these two, and the only thing keeping the PTR from being classified as a MG, is that welded shelf that prevents one from attaching a FA trigger group (that little tab hanging out of the mag well of the G3 is just a paddle mag release. I just haven't installed one on my ptr yet). The PTR receiver still readily accepts a FA bolt carrier just fine, its just the welded shelf that in the eyes of the ATF keeps the PTR and all semi auto HKg3 clones from being machine guns.
To me, speaking from the point of view as a machinist, it would be incredibly easy remove that welded shelf and drill a pin hole for a FA trigger group. Doing so would be horrendously illegal, but the point still stands about the lack of a definition of what is and is not considered readily convertible.
Wiselite arms made a few ATF approved Semi auto sterling's available a few years ago before they went belly up. I haven't had the chance to see one in person yet (they've become expensive and kind of hard to find), but what I do know is that they were able to use original diameter receiver tubes and parts for their guns. They modified original FA bolts to be closed bolt semi auto some how, and this I suspect is the only way to get past the Machine gun definition... Unfortunately it looks like they were unable to use the original barrel lug on the front for their design for some reason. I suspect it may have been a forced modification due to whatever they did to the bolts

I'm still going to try and get a answer in writing from the tech guys at the ATF on what to do once my kit shows up in the mail and I can lay out a solid idea for them to assess

BobaFettSlave_1 said:

I'm still going to try and get a answer in writing from the tech guys at the ATF on what to do once my kit shows up in the mail and I can lay out a solid idea for them to assess

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Good luck with that. The ATF doesn't like to put things in writing and is purposefully vague. That allows them to interpret and reinterpret things to their own benefit. Dealing with them is like pulling teeth.

The ATF only cares about this, "readily convertible". If the receiver has to be cut AGAIN to attempt to remove a properly welded barrel which in itself is effectively destroyed, It is not readily convertible. My personal sterling went on a trip of about 4 months with the ATF and 6 different people signed off on it before it was returned to me. They even cut my scope rail off! wacko Readily convertible means can it be turned back into a functioning machine gun with average shop tools. The answer is no.

DARKSIDE72 said:

The ATF only cares about this, "readily convertible". If the receiver has to be cut AGAIN to attempt to remove a properly welded barrel which in itself is effectively destroyed, It is not readily convertible. My personal sterling went on a trip of about 4 months with the ATF and 6 different people signed off on it before it was returned to me. They even cut my scope rail off! wacko Readily convertible means can it be turned back into a functioning machine gun with average shop tools. The answer is no.

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If that's the case then that's wonderful. PM Sent
I'm still waiting on my kit to get here but I was thinking I might even have to modify the bolt and receiver to semi auto to even be in possession of it, which would include converting the bolt, triggergroup, and welding a denial island into the receiver. All work I can do, but a massive PITA, If I don't have to do all that work and can have a moving bolt in the e-11 then that's just awesome.

Well here's a pile of junk



And here she is all laid out (I polished the bolt to white while I was at work)
Guess its time to turn this into a build thread =)

that barrel shroud would be perfect for a wiselite conversion...

I actually thought heavily about converting it to semi and regestering it as a SBR. I have all the skills and access to tools to do it, wouldnt be all that hard. But then the MA Assault Weapons Ban came into play and the super killy folding stock is a no no. Then I thought "well hey, its a Stormie blaster anyway, i'll just pin and weld the stock folded and regester it as a pistol". But nooo, MA has a law making it so pistols cant be more than 50oz...
So its a no go as long as I live in this craphole state =\

But can you still make it as E-11? Would that be allowed?

As long as its deactivated in the eyes of the ATF I can, yup.

That's perfect then