What Makes Star Wars - Star Wars? + Favorite SW moments

@MasterEdi

I'm not pooh-poohing anybody for liking anything; they can do as they please. But, there is nothing new to "nostalgia". That is the very antithesis of what nostalgia is. Nostalgia is the reminiscence of something old and past. As it were in Lucas' sense, he was actually able to take what he had liked previously and learned from them; what made it exciting, what made it "work" in the first place, and used that as a foundation to capture that sense of wonder he felt then in his own narrative, in his own way. Coupled with his own skill and talents, and his own ideas, he created something new and exciting that resonated with many people. And when something from the past is drawn on to inspire something new, that isn't "nostalgia", that's learning. That's progression; learning from the old to make something new. The same case is also applicable to Indiana Jones.

The difference between then and now that I take immense umbrage with is that fact that "nostalgia" is now a crutch to not try anymore. Using one's experience as a springboard to create something else is one thing, but trying to recreate the old thing again without pushing it forward is just pandering. It's not unlike tossing trained circus seals a fish, really. Just flash something that people can recognize and they'll lap it up. And, unfortunately, that's what most things I find are now. Stranger Things was the ultimate example of this recently for me before TFA. While I don't hold it against anybody for liking it, I do wish people were more critical as to what it was: a mixtape. And a haphazard mixtape of previously released "Best of" albums, at that.

While some may like it, and that's fine, what isn't fine is that it's become generally acceptable for something to be just that. I find that unacceptable. It's an insult to the intellect of a great many people, I think. I can sympathize with the temptation of embracing something familiar, but equally, I think that's a dangerous temptation to have. I think it leads to stagnation and stagnation, in one way or another, is death. To put it politely, it's like defecating where one eats.

For me, SW is all about the dichotomy of good and evil, and that small grey area in between we like to call humanity. It's about love, life, hope, and the ever present struggle against evil. It's about laser swords, and blasters, and rooting for the little guy, even when rooting for them is hard. It's about struggling with inner demons, and family, and especially, for the viewer, nostalgia. I grew up with the OT, the PT not coming out until I already started school. Some of my earliest memories involve watching movies like Jaws, Terminator 2, Star Wars, and Jurassic Park. They are the movies that had made me into the avid film lover I am today.

For me Star Wars brings to the Life that there are things out there that are unexplained......The Force,UFOs,God,.......gives me something to hold onto......Love the Saga of Good and Evil stuggling to better each other....Just like Life.....

Star Wars is FUN.

Characters that are fun and you want to root for...

Wizards and knights and princesses and swords... Fantasy in space.

Adventure! A quest!

That's why I liked TFA.

Rogue One had Star Wars things in it, but didn't match tone.

So that's all fine... you can have Tarantino come in and do a film about a Bounty Hunter hunting other Bounty Hunters that left him to die in a double cross... it can be uber violent, have amazing dialogue and action scenes...

It may be my favorite movie of the year... My favorite Tarantino movie ever!...

BUT...

It may not be a Star Wars movie to me.

If Rogue One had a solid story with great characters that grew and changed through the adventure, I may have really liked it!

But I still probably wouldn't think it was a good "Star Wars" movie.

Bo-Katan, "Maul must really want you dead"
Obi-wan, "You have no idea"

That might be my favorite moment on the clone wars.

PoopaPapaPalps said:

@MasterEdi

I'm not pooh-poohing anybody for liking anything; they can do as they please. But, there is nothing new to "nostalgia". That is the very antithesis of what nostalgia is. Nostalgia is the reminiscence of something old and past. As it were in Lucas' sense, he was actually able to take what he had liked previously and learned from them; what made it exciting, what made it "work" in the first place, and used that as a foundation to capture that sense of wonder he felt then in his own narrative, in his own way. Coupled with his own skill and talents, and his own ideas, he created something new and exciting that resonated with many people. And when something from the past is drawn on to inspire something new, that isn't "nostalgia", that's learning. That's progression; learning from the old to make something new. The same case is also applicable to Indiana Jones.

The difference between then and now that I take immense umbrage with is that fact that "nostalgia" is now a crutch to not try anymore. Using one's experience as a springboard to create something else is one thing, but trying to recreate the old thing again without pushing it forward is just pandering. It's not unlike tossing trained circus seals a fish, really. Just flash something that people can recognize and they'll lap it up. And, unfortunately, that's what most things I find are now. Stranger Things was the ultimate example of this recently for me before TFA. While I don't hold it against anybody for liking it, I do wish people were more critical as to what it was: a mixtape. And a haphazard mixtape of previously released "Best of" albums, at that.

While some may like it, and that's fine, what isn't fine is that it's become generally acceptable for something to be just that. I find that unacceptable. It's an insult to the intellect of a great many people, I think. I can sympathize with the temptation of embracing something familiar, but equally, I think that's a dangerous temptation to have. I think it leads to stagnation and stagnation, in one way or another, is death. To put it politely, it's like defecating where one eats.

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While I do agree with you for most of what you said, and you are insightful, do you think you feel this way because you just arent a nostalgic/sentimental person? You said you didnt have the best childhood, so maybe you want something new and look towards the future because the past/present werent that great? Im generally asking, Im not trying to be a jerk, for some reason people mince my words, at least a few in other threads anyway. For me, Im a totally nostalgic/sentimental person, I have most of my old toys, cards, original nintendo consoles etc. I really loved my childhood, so maybe thats why I enjoyed The force awakens so much, because it reminded me of all the fun I had with Star Wars stuff growing up. I was born in 82 so I didnt get to see it in theaters like most people did, I saw it on VHS. Star Wars to me, like many have said, was the lived in feeling, the relatable characers, the awesome creatures, everything looked and felt real, I believed that stuff could exist somewhere in a galaxy far far away. I loved that. Because it was real, practical effects speaking. Thats what I love about it, its one of my main influences in wanting to get into SPFX and creature effects professionally. Even though our brains KNOW that Jabba the hutt doesnt exist, he is something tangible right there in the camera. So much better than CGI video game-esque effects. So I guess the TL DR is that I enjoyed it from my childhood, so when I rewatch the OT it brings me back to a kid, and those were some great times.
NeoRutty I think we just became best friends.

To me, star wars is space opera with spaceships, robots, soldiers, cowboys, wizards, knights, and dragons.

It's everything.


But it isn't an action franchise. It's space opera. That difference is the reason it is so important.

Oddly enough, the part of the franchise that combines all of those things together the best is the clone wars. Even though ESB is one of the greatest movies ever, the clone wars is my favorite version of star wars. It was just so damn creative.
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Snikt said:

@NeoRutty I think we just became best friends.

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INDOMINUS REX!!! (kidding)

Snikt said:

While I do agree with you for most of what you said, and you are insightful, do you think you feel this way because you just arent a nostalgic/sentimental person? You said you didnt have the best childhood, so maybe you want something new and look towards the future because the past/present werent that great?...

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No offense taken. It's the internet, text doesn't carry inflection; it's the reader who puts it there.

Apropos your question: I suppose that would have some influence on me for feeling as I do but, equally, so would all my other experiences that inform the person I am now. I wouldn't just pin it on that as the genesis. I will agree that while I'm not generally a sentimentalist, that doesn't mean I don't have select things that I keep because of emotional attachments to; I do. What I question and take to task with "nostalgia" and it's current usage is not the act of being sentimental in of itself, as I mentioned earlier, but being sentimental for the lazy sake of sentimentality. Because then, it is no longer nostalgia; it's delusion.

"Nostalgia" is nothing but the trendiest buzzword, right now. It's a marketing gimmick. In fact, that's all marketing is. "Do you remember when...?" "I remember when..." Nostalgia itself infers that it is a subjective recollection a single person has. It can't be something everyone has and equally of of the same thing. It's one person's memory of how something was to them rather than how it may have actually been or was to anybody else. The very question of the OP touches on this, and we see how many varied responses there are to the question.

I can't help but be reminded of a conversation I had with my literature professor in college years ago, where he started reminiscing growing up in the 50's and 60's. He felt then that "despite the troubles, it was truly a safer and better time", if I recall his words correctly. He wouldn't fully concede the remark that I made about people feeling similarly now about just 20-30 years ago, and how it was really him looking back at a time when he was young in the era he grew up in. Or that this might be an inherent characteristic of the human condition revealing itself as we age. He just nodded his head and said, "It may be, but I truly believe that it was a better time". Contrast that to another tidbit I got from a math teacher in high school I bonded with, who said to me, "There is nothing to reminisce about. There was never a greater or better time for anybody, anywhere. When I was a boy, the threat was nuclear war. Today, yours is international terrorism. It's always the same things; just a different face for each generation. We have to change and adapt to meet them because they sure will to meet us''.

To paraphrase Mr. Spock, "If we all must live in our own self-made Purgatories, surely, mine isn't as bad as any other."

One final point regarding the topic at hand and then I'll stop. I will concede there are shared and similar experiences that create a thread to connect over, but I feel to hone it down to even just that and create set parameters for anyone or anything else to follow after, is a silly notion. Especially in the arts and, in this instance, Star Wars. MasterEdi made a point earlier that @NeoRutty touched on in his post, about how Star Wars is always for somebody, even if it's not what you or I think is "Star Wars". I wanted to touch on it earlier but I think the point can be made now, and clearly that, that is nonsense. The reason why is in an answer John Landis gave when he got flak for An American Werewolf in London for not sticking to using silver bullets. When asked that, he said something along the lines of, "How do you kill a zombie? Destroy the head? No. You kill it any way you want because it's not real. None of it is! It's fiction! You can kill it any way you want.'' And that's my ultimate attitude towards Star Wars. Now, one doesn't have to like everything that comes out because of that, but because it's not real, because it's just fiction, that should mean that it's open season to push the boundaries and take Star Wars someplace else and tell that story as well as one possibly can, rather than just drinking the bathwater of the OT. Something that Disney is content to do for the next, well, forever.

@NeoRutty again, but Tarantino's Star Wars? Sign me up for that! I only like 4 of his movies but he's shown he's a competent and talented enough director to do something different and good (once in a while). However, that's if he's given free reign over this entire production and that just simply won't happen under Disney. And, likely, not gonna happen for Rian Johnson as well, and he's made some pretty decent films himself. Say what you will about Lucas but one thing about him, and the OT, that people tend to overlook is the direction and the distinct stamp left on each film by them. Lucas' vision of ANH is different from the sensibilities of Kershner's ESB and Marquand's RotJ, respectively. They stuck to the script, which tied the OT together, but each film was under the direction, in the vision, and at the hands of their own respective directors. That isn't the system today. They can get all the prospective and talented guys coming in, but to just squeeze and bitch-whip them to stick to focus-group-tested standards, creates the most dreary, droll, indistinct, pedantic, pedestrian, shallow and, worst of all, pandering drivel one can make. And all for "nostalgia".

PoopaPapaPalps said:

Stranger Things was the ultimate example of this recently for me before TFA. While I don't hold it against anybody for liking it, I do wish people were more critical as to what it was: a mixtape. And a haphazard mixtape of previously released "Best of" albums, at that.

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I knew very well that Stranger Things was a mix tape.
I'm a kid of the '80s - I love a mix tape. I spent YEARS on my elbows on my bedroom floor making mix tapes.
PM me your address - I'll send you a mix tape
You'll LOVE it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bYXb7iEDJ4

edit - not meant to diminish your opinion. You've clearly put more thought into it than I have. I'm a knee-jerk kinda guy. I can tell you I like or don't like something, but explaining why becomes a challenge. I'm a simple artist, with a simple artist's mind.

More power to you and your mixtapes, Axlotl. You do you, man. Send mixtapes out for every Chrimbus. A series of songs, maybe centered around a theme or mood, proceeding one after another, fine. Have it. Take it. Own it.

I grew up with Hip-Hop. Take that list of of songs, chop, cut, and rework them into one and you'll have the difference of this:

And this:

Equally good on their own apart and enjoyable in their own rights, but in good creative hands, they can turn into an entirely different animal together.

For me, its an elegant weapon, for a more civilized age.

Whatever made Star Wars what it was, imo, ended after ESB. Yes, ROTJ has some incredible SW moments, but on the whole, the movie lacked what the first had.

Same for the PT. It has its moments, but they were so overdone they lost a tangible connection to the OT.

TFA and R1, close. I'd say TFA feels closest to the OT.

When I was a kid, I felt like I could be a part of that universe. The story was simple and complete, and have a sense of wonder and awe. It made you feel like you could try to use the force, (silent Bob and the Jedi mind trick). When I left the theater, I had that ROCKY feeling, I could stsnd toe to toe with anyone.

Maybe it's my age, or maybe it's Hollywood in the 21st century, but that magic doesn't happen anymore.

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jhazard said:

For me, its an elegant weapon, for a more civilized age.

Whatever made Star Wars what it was, imo, ended after ESB. Yes, ROTJ has some incredible SW moments, but on the whole, the movie lacked what the first had.

Same for the PT. It has its moments, but they were so overdone they lost a tangible connection to the OT.

TFA and R1, close. I'd say TFA feels closest to the OT.

When I was a kid, I felt like I could be a part of that universe. The story was simple and complete, and have a sense of wonder and awe. It made you feel like you could try to use the force, (silent Bob and the Jedi mind trick). When I left the theater, I had that ROCKY feeling, I could stsnd toe to toe with anyone.

Maybe it's my age, or maybe it's Hollywood in the 21st century, but that magic doesn't happen anymore.

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interesting way to put it...

I don't think it's your age. i just don't think the magic is ALLOWED to happen anymore. movies these days are run by committee as they are by people who just are not into whatever franchise they get. look at JJ who got stuck with star trek first cause he wanted to be on star wars.

Well, your love of Timothy Zahn explains why I disagree with your assessment of the new films. I did not really like the Zahn books. Some bits? Sure. But overall, I did not like the story much. I hated the character of Mara Jade with a passion, Thrawn was a little too Bond villain for my tastes, and Luuke Skywalker was a terrible, terrible idea, IMO. I did not like much of the EU.

For me, both TFA and R1 hit the right notes. But to each his own.