Always! & you should sell them to me really cheap to teach CBS a lesson!
Axanar - Crowdfunded 'Star Trek' Movie Draws Lawsuit from Paramount, CBS
- Thread starter mkstewartesq
- Start date
Always! & you should sell them to me really cheap to teach CBS a lesson!
Don't blame Paramount for doing what they had to do. This is just an act of legal butt-covering on their part and it makes plenty of sense.
Blame Axanar.
Blame whoever made the decisions to attempt to take it this far, and to keep pushing against Paramount once they noticed what was going on. And don't confuse a lack of common sense with a selfish greedy lack of respect for anyone else. This smells more like the latter to me.
Blame Axanar.
Blame whoever made the decisions to attempt to take it this far, and to keep pushing against Paramount once they noticed what was going on. And don't confuse a lack of common sense with a selfish greedy lack of respect for anyone else. This smells more like the latter to me.
asalaw
Sr Member
Yup. No doubt.
Dessa
Sr Member
That's not how I interpreted it. I interpreted it as if you're using commercially-available (i.e. stuff you purchase), it has to be official stuff, not bootlegs. Not that you can't make stuff yourself. So you can make your own uniforms, but if you're buying something on the market, it has to be an officially licensed piece.
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Unenforcible anyway. How would they tell from watching a video who made a shirt or a phaser?
At least four small-run prop makers have legally sold phasers through Lincoln Enterprises/Roddenberry.com, and of course there's the Wand phaser, so it's not like "that looks too much like a phaser instead of a toy. Foul!".
At least four small-run prop makers have legally sold phasers through Lincoln Enterprises/Roddenberry.com, and of course there's the Wand phaser, so it's not like "that looks too much like a phaser instead of a toy. Foul!".
They will know, because from what I have seen from people, they love to brag. The studio will have legal people looking into the production and researching things, you can bet on that. And people these days are too ignorant to watch what they say. Somewhere, on some forum, or through one of the many social media accounts, they will show "their build" or "their unlicensed item" to get that stroke to their ego. And you can bet the studio will be there to read it. If these builders can do it quietly, and under the radar, then they might just sneak by. But people are always saying too much online and it bites them in the butt.
asalaw
Sr Member
There's no question of enforcing the guidelines. The guidelines are there to give you a sense of what will move them to enforce their IP rights, and those of their licensees.
They can still sue any fan film they want, at any time. These are just "guidelines," and "not a license and do not constitute approval" of any fan film. CBS/PMT can change them or yank them at their leisure.
As to interpretation, it doesn't matter how we interpret the guidelines. It only matters how CBS/PMT do, since they're their guidelines.
You can try to split those hairs any way you want, but if they want to shut you down, they will. Consequently, the safest way to "interpret" them is as far in CBS/PMT's favor as possible, because that's how they will. You won't get the chance to quibble about the meaning of the guidelines in court. They're not going to sue you for breaching the guidelines. They're going to sue you for IP infringement. If you can't see the difference, don't make the film.
They can still sue any fan film they want, at any time. These are just "guidelines," and "not a license and do not constitute approval" of any fan film. CBS/PMT can change them or yank them at their leisure.
As to interpretation, it doesn't matter how we interpret the guidelines. It only matters how CBS/PMT do, since they're their guidelines.
You can try to split those hairs any way you want, but if they want to shut you down, they will. Consequently, the safest way to "interpret" them is as far in CBS/PMT's favor as possible, because that's how they will. You won't get the chance to quibble about the meaning of the guidelines in court. They're not going to sue you for breaching the guidelines. They're going to sue you for IP infringement. If you can't see the difference, don't make the film.
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On the intellectual property front, the studio HAS TO protect their interest. Or write up a specific contract allowing them to do so under an agreement with no intent of letting the fans create their own "IP from this movie that they can profit from.
Which brings me to the "other perspective", the motives of the makers.
I think there are two purposes, to make a good movie and to build up personal credit as well financial motives. If you look hard enough into those running this, there are some undertones that look rocky. Given this, I don't see how the studio cannot continue on with the lawsuit.
Best case scenario, they work out a contract with a not not to pull this again, worse can, they destroy the lives of those involved.
Which brings me to the "other perspective", the motives of the makers.
I think there are two purposes, to make a good movie and to build up personal credit as well financial motives. If you look hard enough into those running this, there are some undertones that look rocky. Given this, I don't see how the studio cannot continue on with the lawsuit.
Best case scenario, they work out a contract with a not not to pull this again, worse can, they destroy the lives of those involved.
Solo4114
Master Member
As I've said before, the way I see it, the studio has three basic options:
1. Tell Axanar to shut down everything NOW, and otherwise let them walk away without a scratch. No damages, no attorney fees. At this point, I think this is the least likely outcome.
2. Tell Axanar to shut down NOW, and accept actual damages as the studio's pound of flesh, or damages plus attorney's fees. The studio eats the cost of its legal fees, but racks up an injunction and a (likely) high dollar amount for actual damages, given what it would cost to get a license from the studio (for example). I think the likelihood of this being the offer increases with each denied motion by Axanar.
3. The studio walks away from the settlement table. It crushes Axanar, sees Axanar driven before it, and hears the lamentations of Axanar's women. Injunctive relief, statutory damages, and attorney fees. It bankrupts Axanar as its own studio, and nails the principals for every penny it can. Scorched earth. This is, from everything I've heard, exactly what will happen if there is no settlement before we hit summary judgment. At that point, once the judge rules on the legal merits of the case, Axanar is screwed.
Let me be abundantly clear: everything I've heard about this says that Axanar has no legal leg on which to stand. There are no loopholes. This is not fair use. Axanar has no laches defense available (arguing the studio knew and sat on its hands for too long). Axanar has never had any truly colorable legal defense, in my opinion. This is blackletter infringement any way you look at it. The only question would be whether it was willful infringement to the point where the studio can get statutory damages, and on that basis........yeah, I'd bet the court says it was indeed willful.
The people behind Axanar are idiots when it comes to the law. This may be driven by their fanaticism for their own "cause," or simple wishful thinking, but either way, they are screwed.
1. Tell Axanar to shut down everything NOW, and otherwise let them walk away without a scratch. No damages, no attorney fees. At this point, I think this is the least likely outcome.
2. Tell Axanar to shut down NOW, and accept actual damages as the studio's pound of flesh, or damages plus attorney's fees. The studio eats the cost of its legal fees, but racks up an injunction and a (likely) high dollar amount for actual damages, given what it would cost to get a license from the studio (for example). I think the likelihood of this being the offer increases with each denied motion by Axanar.
3. The studio walks away from the settlement table. It crushes Axanar, sees Axanar driven before it, and hears the lamentations of Axanar's women. Injunctive relief, statutory damages, and attorney fees. It bankrupts Axanar as its own studio, and nails the principals for every penny it can. Scorched earth. This is, from everything I've heard, exactly what will happen if there is no settlement before we hit summary judgment. At that point, once the judge rules on the legal merits of the case, Axanar is screwed.
Let me be abundantly clear: everything I've heard about this says that Axanar has no legal leg on which to stand. There are no loopholes. This is not fair use. Axanar has no laches defense available (arguing the studio knew and sat on its hands for too long). Axanar has never had any truly colorable legal defense, in my opinion. This is blackletter infringement any way you look at it. The only question would be whether it was willful infringement to the point where the studio can get statutory damages, and on that basis........yeah, I'd bet the court says it was indeed willful.
The people behind Axanar are idiots when it comes to the law. This may be driven by their fanaticism for their own "cause," or simple wishful thinking, but either way, they are screwed.
asalaw
Sr Member
I completely agree, and if it gets to #3, they're even screweder than that. Under the bankruptcy code, judgments for willful torts are non-dischargeable in bankruptcy. Sure, the principals and Axanar the company can file and try, but CBS/PMT will just come back with an adversary proceeding in the bankruptcy court and again win on summary judgment. If they let this go to summary judgment, they are ruined, financially as well as professionally.
But now the rains weep o'er their studio
With no one there to hear...
Solo4114
Master Member
I literally laughed out loud at this. :thumbsup
Boy, this guy really doesn't seem to get it...
http://www.thewrap.com/axanar-producer-responds-to-star-trek-fan-film-guidelines-very-disheartening/
http://www.thewrap.com/axanar-producer-responds-to-star-trek-fan-film-guidelines-very-disheartening/
asalaw
Sr Member
He sounds very much like someone who's trying to stay in the limelight, hence his (at best) controversial statements. He also sounds very much like someone who's trying to go out in a blaze of glory, legally and financially speaking.
I can't believe his fancy-pants pro-bono legal team told him it would be smart to fan the flames. Unless they're just as delusional as he is. Of course, one thing we lawyers can't do, no matter how much we may wish we could, is save our clients from themselves. :wacko
I can't believe his fancy-pants pro-bono legal team told him it would be smart to fan the flames. Unless they're just as delusional as he is. Of course, one thing we lawyers can't do, no matter how much we may wish we could, is save our clients from themselves. :wacko
cboath
Master Member
I'm not going to claim to know all the specifics, but, to quote him/the article:
However, Peters told TheWrap that he and his team met with CBS prior to production, and the network didn’t offer any specific guidelines concerning what his crew could and could not do, simply that he couldn’t make money off the project.
Assuming that's true, If you didn't get that in writing, it means precisely jack. They could very well have said it, then changed their minds. If there's no binding agreement or proof they said it, you're screwed. Additionally, from what I read prior, some people ARE getting paid. Ergo, someone (or multiple people) are making money off the project.
I mean, if i'm going to go out and make a Star Wars flick and calling The adventures of Darth Mike in the Outer Rim (tm btw)
if i'm going to do anything besides stick in on youtube, i'm going to consult with LFL and a lawyer before investing much of anything - much less getting a million bucks off kickstarter. I'm no lawyer, but i don't have any desire to be sued into oblivion, you know?
If they guy did any research, he'd discover that paramount is a giant PITA when it comes to this stuff. Possibly the worst out there. Therefore, if you get permission, get it in writing etc so they can't go back on you. Anything less is just plain stupid.
The inference of that article is they were going to release it on DVD and BR. Is that true? That'd be pretty freaking stupid. That basically says 'we're looking to make money'.
That said, he does have a point. After find the rules, it does seem they're intended to stamp out anything along the lines of what he's doing. While I can agree with most of their rules, 15-30 minute time limit? Really? You can't give stuff away? Kickstarter is legal, but you can't say for $50 we'll give you a copy of the script? The way I read it, putting the script online would even be illegal as it would be construed as something given away free. Any costume/props that are made by a licensee must be used if that style is used? There are some exceeding stupid and punitive rules on that list. They do no scream fan friendly. Hell, For a handfull of people in the same town it's not really friendly if it means you have to shell out fr authorized merchandise to do so.
I mean, one of the fun things people like to do is take footage and insert themselves, or others, into it. That's banned....
Not trying to defend the guy, but their guidelines are poor and designed to really keep people from doing much of anything it seems. This guy though, seems to have crossed even the most basic of things though. In the face of no guidelines, Rule #1 is usually don't make money on the project. The fact that a number of people are getting paid violoates that right there. End of story.
However, Peters told TheWrap that he and his team met with CBS prior to production, and the network didn’t offer any specific guidelines concerning what his crew could and could not do, simply that he couldn’t make money off the project.
Assuming that's true, If you didn't get that in writing, it means precisely jack. They could very well have said it, then changed their minds. If there's no binding agreement or proof they said it, you're screwed. Additionally, from what I read prior, some people ARE getting paid. Ergo, someone (or multiple people) are making money off the project.
I mean, if i'm going to go out and make a Star Wars flick and calling The adventures of Darth Mike in the Outer Rim (tm btw)
if i'm going to do anything besides stick in on youtube, i'm going to consult with LFL and a lawyer before investing much of anything - much less getting a million bucks off kickstarter. I'm no lawyer, but i don't have any desire to be sued into oblivion, you know?If they guy did any research, he'd discover that paramount is a giant PITA when it comes to this stuff. Possibly the worst out there. Therefore, if you get permission, get it in writing etc so they can't go back on you. Anything less is just plain stupid.
The inference of that article is they were going to release it on DVD and BR. Is that true? That'd be pretty freaking stupid. That basically says 'we're looking to make money'.
That said, he does have a point. After find the rules, it does seem they're intended to stamp out anything along the lines of what he's doing. While I can agree with most of their rules, 15-30 minute time limit? Really? You can't give stuff away? Kickstarter is legal, but you can't say for $50 we'll give you a copy of the script? The way I read it, putting the script online would even be illegal as it would be construed as something given away free. Any costume/props that are made by a licensee must be used if that style is used? There are some exceeding stupid and punitive rules on that list. They do no scream fan friendly. Hell, For a handfull of people in the same town it's not really friendly if it means you have to shell out fr authorized merchandise to do so.
I mean, one of the fun things people like to do is take footage and insert themselves, or others, into it. That's banned....
Not trying to defend the guy, but their guidelines are poor and designed to really keep people from doing much of anything it seems. This guy though, seems to have crossed even the most basic of things though. In the face of no guidelines, Rule #1 is usually don't make money on the project. The fact that a number of people are getting paid violoates that right there. End of story.
What the actual f.....
http://www.startrek.com/fan-films
Rules are great and all but what the actual french frying pan "Videos must not include illegal activity, or any material that is offensive", "threatening", my mouth is literally wide open and if I was a cartoon my jaw would be on the floor.
"Any material that is offensive" that is anything, and everything. Even a blank screen for 9 minutes can be considered "offensive". :facepalm "Mom, the video I am watching only contains a black/white/blue screen, that is so racist". Nothing "hateful", I guess Romulans and Cardassians are best friends now..... :wacko "yay"??
:facepalm
And no threatening? So no more "Stand down captain or I'll fire forty-seven photon torpedoes up your behind"? No illegal activity so I guess no more slave girls, no more stealing back the Enterprise... no more Star Trek fan films.
Thanks Axanar. Frakking Axholes.
:facepalmx1 000 000
http://www.startrek.com/fan-films
Rules are great and all but what the actual french frying pan "Videos must not include illegal activity, or any material that is offensive", "threatening", my mouth is literally wide open and if I was a cartoon my jaw would be on the floor.
"Any material that is offensive" that is anything, and everything. Even a blank screen for 9 minutes can be considered "offensive". :facepalm "Mom, the video I am watching only contains a black/white/blue screen, that is so racist". Nothing "hateful", I guess Romulans and Cardassians are best friends now..... :wacko "yay"??
:facepalm
And no threatening? So no more "Stand down captain or I'll fire forty-seven photon torpedoes up your behind"? No illegal activity so I guess no more slave girls, no more stealing back the Enterprise... no more Star Trek fan films.
Thanks Axanar. Frakking Axholes.
:facepalmx1 000 000
Cameron
Sr Member
You really only had to not do one thing. THIS:
However, Peters told TheWrap that he and his team met with CBS prior to production, and the network didn’t offer any specific guidelines concerning what his crew could and could not do, simply that he couldn’t make money off the project.
However, Peters told TheWrap that he and his team met with CBS prior to production, and the network didn’t offer any specific guidelines concerning what his crew could and could not do, simply that he couldn’t make money off the project.
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Not in my dealings with them.
The Mouse is the horror show to deal with
As with anything in life it is not only WHO you know but HOW you deal with them, that and how you are percieved in the Fan Community/ general public.
They gave us a pass on a lot of things when they came down on everybody in the 90's.
I think Alec mistakenly thought he could in essence blackmail them with this and have them back down.
The Mouse is the horror show to deal with
As with anything in life it is not only WHO you know but HOW you deal with them, that and how you are percieved in the Fan Community/ general public.
They gave us a pass on a lot of things when they came down on everybody in the 90's.
I think Alec mistakenly thought he could in essence blackmail them with this and have them back down.
People are over-reacting to this.
These new guidelines aren't going to be strictly enforced. Paramount doesn't need to do it and they couldn't do it if they tried. Paramount is just officially warning fans that they don't promise to allow your fan-film by default unless it fits into an utterly harmless inoffensive format.
The studio is just declaring an official position on fan-films. Now it's easier for them to stop the next Alec Peters without a struggle. Next time the fan's lawyers will be less likely to roll the dice on the case. Other people in the organization & in the mainstream media won't give him the same benefit of the doubt before studying the issue. Their own associates like JJA won't read the situation wrong & say things they shouldn't. Etc.
IMO Alec Peters got off easy. Paramount read the situation and decided (correctly) that they risk being portrayed as a bully in the media if they did any more than stop the movie itself. Too many of the headlines would read things like: "ST fan says studio is destroying him for trying to make a better non-profit ST movie than the studio could."
These new guidelines aren't going to be strictly enforced. Paramount doesn't need to do it and they couldn't do it if they tried. Paramount is just officially warning fans that they don't promise to allow your fan-film by default unless it fits into an utterly harmless inoffensive format.
The studio is just declaring an official position on fan-films. Now it's easier for them to stop the next Alec Peters without a struggle. Next time the fan's lawyers will be less likely to roll the dice on the case. Other people in the organization & in the mainstream media won't give him the same benefit of the doubt before studying the issue. Their own associates like JJA won't read the situation wrong & say things they shouldn't. Etc.
IMO Alec Peters got off easy. Paramount read the situation and decided (correctly) that they risk being portrayed as a bully in the media if they did any more than stop the movie itself. Too many of the headlines would read things like: "ST fan says studio is destroying him for trying to make a better non-profit ST movie than the studio could."
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asalaw
Sr Member
And how would you like that to be the least of your problems...
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