HCG Aliens Smartgun
- Thread starter ghostryder
- Start date
Are there? I haven't kept up with what's available in the Aliens prop world recently, but with Matsuo out of the picture, is anyone else offering good SG kits?
wildething
Active Member
I don't think anyone is building good kits at the moment. you could build one cheaper using airsoft parts but you know you'd have to build it and wait a long time to find parts.
Why is Matsuo out of the picture? Did he quit making props now?
http://www.therpf.com/showthread.php?t=220401&highlight=matsuo
I don't know exactly what Matt's status is right now, but I wouldn't recommend ordering from him while he isn't communicating over back-orders, which seems to be a long standing issue.
I previously built up one of Matt's resin MG42s with the original motorcycle parts & real drum, and it certainly came out cheaper than the HCG. It's going to be interesting to see how much of the replica is metal.
The thing to remember... is your words: YOU BUILT... When you buy a unlicensed kit, you save a lot in the cost. You are putting the man hours into assembly and painting it. When you buy a fully assembled, fully painted and finished piece with stand, you will pay more due to the work being done for you. Plus let us not forget that this is Officially Licensed. That cost does have to be accounted into overhead and will cause the item to increase in cost. I know that is usually not considered by customers, but to be legal and produce something that is permitted by the Licensor, then it is a huge cost to offset. So yes, this is more expensive than a kit, but if you have the skill and time to finish a kit, and can find one since Matsuo seems to have vanished, then that is the route to go. You can save a bunch.
I can't find any other kits out there at the moment and to find one or scratch build could take many many many man hours and time is money, so even paying only half for a kit to get it finished would end up costing a similar amount taking time and effort into account. Sure we would all like it to cost $400 but I have been burned missing out on something I really wanted before only to watch it sky rocket in price afterwards so what the heck!
That's the problem with limited edition pre-orders isn't it. If you wait for the reviews you most likely have missed the boat to get on the order list so you only have promo material and images to go by.
I started working in the film business in Tucson Arizona in 1978, doing make up and stunt work. I moved to LA California in 1981 and started my film career in earnest. Around 1984/5, I was in Orange County California looking to kill some time, and I wandered into a Military surplus store. Right near the door was this olive drab, military looking mechanical device, that I quickly recognized as a "Stedicam". I asked the clerk about it, and he said, no it was not really a "Stedicam" it was a gun mount the military had been experimenting with for aircraft door mounts and jeep mounts, but they couldn't dampen out the "climb" from the gun recoil. I asked how much, and he said $500. Well that was out of my price range for something like this so I moved on. On the way home I was thinking how cool this device was and what I could make with it. Then It occurred to me, what if you used it like the "Stedicam", as a body mount, but for a huge gun in place of a camera. Now my hand drawing skills are fairly poor, but mechanical things I'm OK at drawing, at least to get the idea across. A couple of years earlier, I designed all the weapons for "Ice Pirates" for another Prop House, Ellis Mercantile, and since my illustration skills were so poor compared to professional concept designers, I figured my designs would be redrawn. But no, my original sketches, on notebook paper, were shown to the director. I was horrified.
So when I got home from Orange county, I did some sketches of Sci-Fi guns, with this surplus military gun mount. Happy with the design, I got out some good paper and did a final pen & ink drawing. Given my usually poor skills as an illustrator, I was pretty happy with the drawing. It was a large gun, perhaps 4 to 5 feet in length mounted to a stedicam style arm, which in turn was mounted to a body harness. The gun, when not being held, could be "stored" up behind the wearers shoulder. There were a couple a variations to the gun design, either on the same page or another drawing. (I don't recall)
At the time, I was working for one of Hollywood's bigger, more predominate Prop Houses, "The Hand Prop Room". Allen Levine the owner, was a retired prop master, who told me amazing stories of working on "Apocalypse Now" and "Jeremiah Johnson". One day, Allen calls me up to his office and asks if I have any sci-fi gun drawings. (He knew I did Ice Pirates for his competitor years earlier). I tell him I have a couple and he asks me to bring them in, he wants to show a prop master, who is working on a new sci-fi film.
At this time in history, color copies are rare, because the good Canon ones cost $100,000, so only the bigger copy businesses have them. In the morning Allen ask me about the drawings and I tell him, my plan to go make copies at lunch time. He tells me not to bother. I explain these are my one and only originals (not to mention rare good drawings). Again, he says don't worry, he's only going to show the prop master. Well, he let the guy take them, and it was the last I ever saw of my drawings. A few weeks later, when it was clear I was not getting my drawings back, and the Hand Prop room was not making props for this sci-fi movie, I asked Allen, what was the film. He said it's a sequel for "that dumb alien movie".
Well, needless to say I was pretty annoyed when I saw the film, and there where guns on stedicams. But that's Hollywood!
So when I got home from Orange county, I did some sketches of Sci-Fi guns, with this surplus military gun mount. Happy with the design, I got out some good paper and did a final pen & ink drawing. Given my usually poor skills as an illustrator, I was pretty happy with the drawing. It was a large gun, perhaps 4 to 5 feet in length mounted to a stedicam style arm, which in turn was mounted to a body harness. The gun, when not being held, could be "stored" up behind the wearers shoulder. There were a couple a variations to the gun design, either on the same page or another drawing. (I don't recall)
At the time, I was working for one of Hollywood's bigger, more predominate Prop Houses, "The Hand Prop Room". Allen Levine the owner, was a retired prop master, who told me amazing stories of working on "Apocalypse Now" and "Jeremiah Johnson". One day, Allen calls me up to his office and asks if I have any sci-fi gun drawings. (He knew I did Ice Pirates for his competitor years earlier). I tell him I have a couple and he asks me to bring them in, he wants to show a prop master, who is working on a new sci-fi film.
At this time in history, color copies are rare, because the good Canon ones cost $100,000, so only the bigger copy businesses have them. In the morning Allen ask me about the drawings and I tell him, my plan to go make copies at lunch time. He tells me not to bother. I explain these are my one and only originals (not to mention rare good drawings). Again, he says don't worry, he's only going to show the prop master. Well, he let the guy take them, and it was the last I ever saw of my drawings. A few weeks later, when it was clear I was not getting my drawings back, and the Hand Prop room was not making props for this sci-fi movie, I asked Allen, what was the film. He said it's a sequel for "that dumb alien movie".
Well, needless to say I was pretty annoyed when I saw the film, and there where guns on stedicams. But that's Hollywood!
Damn!! I mean look at all those potential licensing fees and royalties lost because some idiot gave your work away. Are you sure Levine didn't pass off your work as his own and cashed in??
No, as a prop builder, you don't get any compensation other than paid to design and build stuff. That's one of the myths of the movie business. As for Allan Levine "passing it off..." No, again, that's not how this business works. You either get hired to do the work, or you don't. I suspect the reason the "Aliens" prop master came to HPR, was his previous film was a Sidney Pollack film and Allan was good friends with Pollack, having been the prop master on many of his films.
This type of stuff happens often.
The best one that happened to me was on a James Cameron film. The production designer was consulting with me about Mars suits and habitats (I've worked on a few real spacecraft and spacesuit designs) and the film never happened. Years later, I get a call from an engineer from NASA's advanced Rover lab, asking about high fidelity "Mark III" suit replicas. (The Mark III is an advanced hard/ soft suit) I asked if they were going to dock the suits to the outside of the rover. The was a long silence on the phone, then the engineer asked "How do you know about that?" I replied, that this was an idea I came up with for an ill fated James Cameron Mars movie. "Oh, huh! That's where we heard it" was his reply. So sometimes these things do make there way back to you.
This type of stuff happens often.
The best one that happened to me was on a James Cameron film. The production designer was consulting with me about Mars suits and habitats (I've worked on a few real spacecraft and spacesuit designs) and the film never happened. Years later, I get a call from an engineer from NASA's advanced Rover lab, asking about high fidelity "Mark III" suit replicas. (The Mark III is an advanced hard/ soft suit) I asked if they were going to dock the suits to the outside of the rover. The was a long silence on the phone, then the engineer asked "How do you know about that?" I replied, that this was an idea I came up with for an ill fated James Cameron Mars movie. "Oh, huh! That's where we heard it" was his reply. So sometimes these things do make there way back to you.
Rex Talon
Active Member
You can be upset about guns on steadycams if you want, but as a 22yr military retiree, I can tell you that there is one truth. If there's something in the civilian world that we don't have to reinvent, the government will pay twice the price to use it.
I'm honestly a bit surprised we DON'T use something like the steadicam 30 for HMGs.
Also, does anyone have the patterns for the smartgun armor? I just dropped an order for that limited edition SG.
I'm honestly a bit surprised we DON'T use something like the steadicam 30 for HMGs.
Also, does anyone have the patterns for the smartgun armor? I just dropped an order for that limited edition SG.
VioletSun
Member
//massively off topic don't mind me//
I think the cost and additional weight just wouldn't offset the benefits to the additional stability during marching fire (which isn't really even current doctrine).
Plus the incompatibility with body armour and the fact you'd have to detach the gun if you wanted to go prone...
Definitely looks cool in Aliens though
I think the cost and additional weight just wouldn't offset the benefits to the additional stability during marching fire (which isn't really even current doctrine).
Plus the incompatibility with body armour and the fact you'd have to detach the gun if you wanted to go prone...
Definitely looks cool in Aliens though
Malphas
Well-Known Member
//massively off topic don't mind me//
I think the cost and additional weight just wouldn't offset the benefits to the additional stability during marching fire (which isn't really even current doctrine).
Plus the incompatibility with body armour and the fact you'd have to detach the gun if you wanted to go prone...
Definitely looks cool in Aliens though
Just do like the smart gunners do and lay on your back. Aiming would be out the window without the ''smart'' tech but not much you can do there.
Rex Talon
Active Member
The thing is, when you read up on the M56, it's totally plausible with today's tech. True, our fighting doctrine says you go prone and suppress, but you wouldn't need to go prone if your gun picked out your targets and auto fired a 3 round burst as you aim at them. And you're saying there would be extra weight, which is true, but you wouldn't need to carry 200 lbs of ammo if your gun was smarter about firing.
I think this is where we're going to have the next big leap in infantry weapons. The old way of thinking is, "shoot more bullets". As soon as someone gets their butt handed to them on the battlefield by a single person with a smart weapon, things will change. I mean, you're telling me a video game console can track my movements, but a gun can't? I used to work on FLIR, and we were using target tracking in the early 90's. It's ludicrous.
Also, I found the armor PDO file, now I just need the headset/eye piece thing. Anyone know where to get one?
I think this is where we're going to have the next big leap in infantry weapons. The old way of thinking is, "shoot more bullets". As soon as someone gets their butt handed to them on the battlefield by a single person with a smart weapon, things will change. I mean, you're telling me a video game console can track my movements, but a gun can't? I used to work on FLIR, and we were using target tracking in the early 90's. It's ludicrous.
Also, I found the armor PDO file, now I just need the headset/eye piece thing. Anyone know where to get one?
VioletSun
Member
Oh this is definitely an option. Though that has its disadvantages, like not being able to do so whilst still in defilade, also getting up from your back with full combat load when you can't roll on to your belly to push up with your arms is hard going.
You'd still need a fair amount of ammo to keep people's heads down, even if the rounds are landing more accurately there's something about the psychological value of volume of fire.
I remember seeing a bullet tracking system about 10 years ago that detected incoming fire. Designed to spot sniper fire in urban environments. Though I think that was more a vehicle mounted thing, It'd definitely be useful on a smartgun type weapon system. IR is definitely an option but you still need to be able to put fire on people in cover and adds the issue of friend or foe and the possibility of operating in areas with civilians present. To be honest I think a lot of it is due to cost, even with the enormous budget of the US army they couldn't even issue the XM-25 and that's a comparatively lower tech piece of equipment.
Awesome, looking forwards to seeing your build!
