Survivor Second Chances

I was thinking it was the first possibility, which is why I was asking about Wentworth's idol status

Guri said:

I would agree that Abi didn't go as wacko on camera as they showed in the past, but she was downright mean and nasty quite a few times and was always a potential to go off. The only thing that kept her calm, I think, was her friendship with Wentworth.

When Tasha and Jeremy ASKED her if they could speak alone, I was thinking - they do not get it at all. You never, ever, ever, say that to a crazy paranoid person.

And yet, she felt so safe that she voted for Keith instead of Tasha? Something was happening there that we didn't see. That made no sense at all.

The finale is on Wednesday, that's what I heard.

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Guri, thanks for the info about the finale being on Wednesday. But I must say, I'm surprised you're not giving Abi-Maria more credit. I've seen major growth in her from her 1st season to this one. Is she still a maverick? Of course she is. But she's exhibited considerable restraint and maturity at many times in this season, when in her last season she instantly flew off the handle at similar (and smaller) provocations. She's adopted a zen-like, let-it-be attitude that I really admire.

I always like seeing growth in people during their second (or third) seasons. Whether it's personal growth, or growth in strategic thinking. Boston Rob got absolutely schooled by Russell in Rob's second season, with Russell turning Rob's alliance against him and sending him home. And then Rob comes back for his third season and dominates, winning the game, based largely on what he learned from Russell's gameplay in his previous season--but also based on a game-changing lucky break he got over Russell at the start of the seaon (more on that later). Spencer, this season, is a good example. He's opened up in his social game, which was so lacking the first time he played, and look at him, he's made the final 5 (or whatever we're down to).

Russell never had the chance to grow between his first and second seasons, because he played consecutive seasons, and was sent basically from one island to the next to start all over again, in a brand new game, against returning All-Stars. Russell didn't get to go home, watch his season on TV, get feedback from family and friends, and analyze his game. No, he began his second season not even knowing if he'd won or lost his first season--he didn't even know when playing his second season if the strategies he employed in his first season were ultimately successful. It's the only time someone's been put in that disadvantageous position in the history of Survivor. Remarkably, he made the finals of that second season in spite of that disadvantage--and would've won both seasons, were it not for consecutive sour-grapes juries.

I did detect signs of growth in Russell in his third season a couple years later, but he just wasn't around long enough for us to really see it. Russell was, purely by chance, put in charge of a tribe at the beginning of that season which was filled with castaways determined to get rid of whichever returning player (Russell or Rob) they got as their tribe leader to begin the season; whereas Boston Rob was given a tribe of lemmings, who embraced him from the start to protect them and provide for them. They'd all lay in the water lazily, completely unaware (and uninterested) that Boston Rob was off scouring the island interior for Hidden Immunity Idols--idols that had not even been announced, a game-changing strategy he learned from Russell. Boston Rob admitted as much in the reunion show, saying, "If Russell had been given my tribe, and I had been given his, it'd be Russell sitting here the winner, and I'd have been the one voted out early.".

Abi was so childish in her first season, I never would've expected this kind of growth from her. And I don't think it's a case of the producers just not showing us her antics on camera, Guri. If Abi was acting up like her old self, we surely would be shown those scenes in our living rooms, because that's ratings Gold! I'm not saying she's turned into Mother Theresa. I'm just sayin' I've seen more growth in her maturity than any other returning player I've ever seen. And I admire her for it.

The Wook

I don't get how you can admire people who are so mean and nasty just because they may hold back a little more and be less so after watching themselves on TV - but then you can't be anything but bored by someone as kind, generous and strong as Joe. It makes NO sense to me.

And it's not just editing the worst of who she is, nobody at Ponderosa wanted it to be her because they didn't want to spend time with her... they were glad it was Joe because he is likable and interesting.

The fact that they wanted Joe out so badly, because he was such a threat but STILL think he's an amazing guy is IMO much more admirable than someone like Abi or Russel.

I guess we just admire different sorts of character traits?

I do want to give a bit of a disclaimer regarding my feelings about Abi - if I were to meet her, I would be cordial and as kind as I could be, as I am with everyone (unless I'm just having a bad day), but my guard would be up CONSTANTLY. I have met women like her who actually look for ways to be offended and to call you out. The paranoia, jealousy and meanness make it nearly impossible to not have even your best intentions misconstrued. To watch her treat people that way, to see the awe in their eyes when she turns on them; it brings back memories of people who have done that to me and I just really, really dislike it.

Her controlling it is not admirable because it's still who she is... for instance:

The change that I can admire is like one that Spenser went through. It was internal, realizing that he needed to connect with people, to show his feelings more and NOT just for the game - with his girlfriend too. He saw something that didn't just make it harder to win the social game in survivor, but something that was lacking in his ability to relate to people. Survivor helped him tackle it... and not just to win $$, but because he realizes it's a way to be a better human being.

Abi doesn't want to be a better human being, she is fine with who she is, she doesn't see what she's doing. That's a problem, not just in Survivor, but in life.

Not going to discuss Russel.

Guri said:

I don't get how you can admire people who are so mean and nasty just because they may hold back a little more and be less so after watching themselves on TV - but then you can't be anything but bored by someone as kind, generous and strong as Joe. It makes NO sense to me.

And it's not just editing the worst of who she is, nobody at Ponderosa wanted it to be her because they didn't want to spend time with her... they were glad it was Joe because he is likable and interesting.

The fact that they wanted Joe out so badly, because he was such a threat but STILL think he's an amazing guy is IMO much more admirable than someone like Abi or Russel.

I guess we just admire different sorts of character traits?

I do want to give a bit of a disclaimer regarding my feelings about Abi - if I were to meet her, I would be cordial and as kind as I could be, as I am with everyone (unless I'm just having a bad day), but my guard would be up CONSTANTLY. I have met women like her who actually look for ways to be offended and to call you out. The paranoia, jealousy and meanness make it nearly impossible to not have even your best intentions misconstrued. To watch her treat people that way, to see the awe in their eyes when she turns on them; it brings back memories of people who have done that to me and I just really, really dislike it.

Her controlling it is not admirable because it's still who she is... for instance:

The change that I can admire is like one that Spenser went through. It was internal, realizing that he needed to connect with people, to show his feelings more and NOT just for the game - with his girlfriend too. He saw something that didn't just make it harder to win the social game in survivor, but something that was lacking in his ability to relate to people. Survivor helped him tackle it... and not just to win $$, but because he realizes it's a way to be a better human being.

Abi doesn't want to be a better human being, she is fine with who she is, she doesn't see what she's doing. That's a problem, not just in Survivor, but in life.

Not going to discuss Russel.

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The trouble is not in myself, but in my stars. I am an Aries. A fire sign. And I am drawn to fiery people. I think on their same wavelength.

You are also a fire sign, but a Sagittarius, the kindest, most chill, of the fire signs. Even though you're fiercely independent, and a dynamic personality, you don't possess the same "me first" selfish attitude the other fire signs, Aries and Leo, possess in abundance. You are also on the cusp with Scorpio, a sign known for its loyalty. Scorpios are loyal, and they demand the same out of others. So I'm not surprised you are repelled by players on Survivor who don't hesitate to break their word. Me? When I see a player break their word, I get excited! Now that doesn't mean I want to associate with disloyal people in my real life. Of course I don't. But when watching reality TV, that's when it starts gettin' good for me!

Having said that, when I meet someone socially in real life, and I can tell they have a little bit of the devil in them, I'm intrigued and interested in getting to know them better--especially a female. It sounds like when you detect the same thing in someone you meet in real life, you're repelled and your guard goes up immediately.

This is why nice, loyal Joe bores me and attracts you; and why selfish, manipulative Russell repels you and attracts me.

You see, it's all in our stars.

The Wook

That certainly all makes sense, even though I'm not one to put much stock in the zodiac - is that in the stars too? haha!

Guri said:

That certainly all makes sense, even though I'm not one to put much stock in the zodiac - is that in the stars too? haha!

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Indeed. That's the cynical Scorpio side of you.

It's all in the stars.

The Wook

I'm an Aries, and I hate Russell.

Laspector said:

I'm an Aries, and I hate Russell.

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I understand. Because it's not all about one's sun sign. You no doubt have a lot of water in your chart, which makes bullies repulsive to you.

The Wook

.... After that speech by Jeremy.....
We'll find out in a few minutes!

I was bad and read ahead to see what the historical thing was (hey, I'm on the west coast, and I have a video game I wanna be playing right now!). But now I'm watching it, since I wanna see it actually happen!

Well, Wook, you got your wish... I shall concede to your good call on it.

Carrying that ace in his sleeve all season was worth waiting to pull it out at the end. Though, it did seem people were pretty annoyed with Spense for the way he treated Wentworth and Jeremy... That's the social game, though. You have to fight enough to show you're tough, but not so much that you look mean. Very difficult to walk that line.

This season had several historical firsts and changes - with leaving clues to idols that they had to snatch up in front of others... to the game changing to voting blocks... to the way the voting went.

And nobody was really nasty at the end, either - even Cass and Abi were cordial!

Guri said:

...it did seem people were pretty annoyed with Spense for the way he treated Wentworth and Jeremy... That's the social game, though. You have to fight enough to show you're tough, but not so much that you look mean. Very difficult to walk that line.

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Totally agree. What a line to walk. He felt threatened that he might go and had to fight to stay but that very fight may have cost him. However, I think Jeremy's speech had it locked up for him either way. Poor Tasha. Just sitting there through all the questions and hardly ever addressed. She needed to fight harder at that last Tribal. What a helpless feeling that must have been.

I'm very glad that Jeff came back at the commercial break with the telestrator to explain what the heck happened with that tie vote. It was definitely confusing for me and I didn't get why they wouldn't have gone to fire between Kimmi and Tasha. I would have preferred that to how it actually went down.

While some have been critical of Keith, and his gameplay warrants that, I enjoyed his personality, somewhat clueless character, and his degree of honesty. Wish he did a better job flashing the idol Wentworth made for him. I'm sure she did as well!

Great season!

R.P. McMurphy said:

Wish he did a better job flashing the idol Wentworth made for him. I'm sure she did as well!

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Yeah, I wonder what would have happened if Tash or Spense would have seen it! If all three of the alliance had seen it, they might have scrambled and turned on each other. As it happened, Jeremy was the only one who saw it and was smart enough to play it both ways - if it was real, Spenser would be going home, if it wasn't real, he doesn't look like he flipped on his team and Keith goes home.

Guri said:

Yeah, I wonder what would have happened if Tash or Spense would have seen it! If all three of the alliance had seen it, they might have scrambled and turned on each other. As it happened, Jeremy was the only one who saw it and was smart enough to play it both ways - if it was real, Spenser would be going home, if it wasn't real, he doesn't look like he flipped on his team and Keith goes home.

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Saw a good recap after I posted that a great play would have been for Kelley to hand it to Keith at Tribal, all wrapped up still, then have him open it up and put it on right then and there. I agree that that would have caused some panic and possibly some self-preservation votes by the others that may have saved Keith. Kelley really needed to give Keith a step by step guide on what to do.

Definitely what Kelly should have done ^^. Would have sent them into overdrive. Shame to see Keith get so close!.

Kelly for me was definitely the player most deserving. Even if she had reached the final three, Jeremy still would have won because of that little speech. The "I'm a Dad thing..." I can understand, but still not reason to give someone 1 million dollars. Most fathers out there work their assess off 6/7 days a week, 24 hours a day to provide for their kids. It reminds me of that Chris Rock joke: "I look after my kids" ---- "You're a mom!!... that's what you're supposed to do, what do you want.. a medal!"

Odin82 said:

Kelly for me was definitely the player most deserving.

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I wasn't convinced of that until I saw the reunion show and the video dedication to her. I liked Wentworth in the game, but I agree, she was amazing... and I am stunned that more people didn't say a peep about how gorgeous she is! Just a natural beauty and she never used it maliciously like Pauverty (sp) types. People were going on and on about Joe and he was okay - talented and a great guy, but all the teasing he got was way over the top, IMO

Even if she had reached the final three, Jeremy still would have won because of that little speech. The "I'm a Dad thing..." I can understand, but still not reason to give someone 1 million dollars.

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At first I thought maybe he was holding out to tell people at the final council, but then he said he was afraid if he said anything it would put a target on him for the sympathy vote... I hadn't thought about that.

But it wasn't just the dad thing - he did play a good game and Spenser blew it by being to harsh at Wentworth and Tasha played a strong game, but barely fought at all for it at the end so people just didn't see it.

I cheered on Jeremy in his first season, and also Wentworth in the same season although she was like a frightened kitten. This one, I cheered on Jeremy, but finally saw Wentworth mature into a true survivor. Jeremy played the same game in both his seasons, "This is for Val and the kids" etc. I think Wentworth buddying up with Ciera, from the same first season as Jeremy, was her downfall. If she was able to align with an alpha, much like a Pauverty type, I'd say any season would be hers. And a +1 on the natural beauty, which she never really used as a manipulation tool.

It so was Spencer's 1 million dollars. Car crash TV right there watching him throw it away acting like a petulant child, much like his first season too.

But anyway... best news from Survivor, was that the new season starts in February! Not too long to wait at all! Still not a fan of the Brain v. Beauty v. Brawn though.

Odin82 said:

But anyway... best news from Survivor, was that the new season starts in February! Not too long to wait at all! Still not a fan of the Brain v. Beauty v. Brawn though.

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Oh, yeah, forgot about the previews for the next season - that is one way to get me NOT to watch the show!! I hate it when people get hurt... I can't even watch America's Funniest Home Videos because I don't want to see people getting hurt...

If they hype up the injuries, I don't think I'll enjoy it at all...

Survivor is edited like a TV drama to keep people retuning to it. After filming, they know who to make look like a villain, a hero etc in editing (especially after they know the final tribal jury votes). The trailers are edited even more so, like the one advertising the one Joe passed out. It's the editors that are the real storytellers in survivor!. I'm sure there are plenty of sequences in every season where one of the normal people steps up, but it just didn't fit in with the overall story. Otherwise, why wouldn't it be like CCTV cameras on the island, 24-hour streaming to paid members on a site. 24-hour streaming for 30+ days wouldn't be too hard to do.

It was like the time someone told me Top Gear wasn't scripted .

I didn't have a problem with the final outcome, but I really think Wentworth played the best game this go 'round.