A Darth Vader Collection and Lineage Thread....

[Qui-Gonzalez]

And Paul, you are right about something. Thomas DOES deserve credit for trying to share. Despite the venomous nature of my posts, Thomas has played a huge role in keeping some of the predatory Vader makers, like SPFX, on a very short leash. Every single time Phil would call his stuff authentic, there was Thomas pointing to some flaw in his work, until eventually, Phil was banned from here.

I was going to PM that to him, but since everything else I have said has been out in the open, I felt giving him his credit should be as well. We will agree to disagree on a few points on his tree and that is that. No use in flogging that dead horse.

My apologies for my zealotry.

[SithLord]

Thanks, Qui. Well at least we can agree the TD is along the UK lineage, and that it is an ANH mask, but its exact origin in time as I've tried to discuss isn't known....I just suppose that it is early . And I'll admit I'm a stubborn ass, hehe. So, onto another strange thing about the TD...

I'm fascinated by curvature....namely the curvature of the crown of the head, in addition to the neck, but the crown of the head is surprisingly consistent in the slight deviations in curvature among different castings. Clearly there was some asymmetry to Dave Prowse' head which came through in the sculpture Muir put on top of that, even with the buildup of clay to make room for Prowse' head to fit inside the mask. What I like to do is line up the rear views of masks, and after doing this for a few years, something last year stuck out in my mind, namely this strange almost layer look in the edge of the Paul Allen ESB, which I showed before at one point on TPD but didn't get into it in relation to the TD.



It could be anything, right? I know that as I think Carsten mentioned before it could just be separation of the gelcoat or something like that, but let's look more closely.

I knew I had seen it before, or at least something like it, on the TD. What is sort of funny about this is that this detail on the Paul Allen mask made me look more closely at the TD and that's when I more fully appreciated that there was a curvature difference there in relation to the thickness, but also that the thickness difference on the TD was on account of some kind of beige material spread flat along the surface in two distinct patches on either side of the mask toward the top half....roughly in these areas (the right one is harder to see from this angle but it is actually an even larger patch than the left one).




The funny thing is, the TD is thicker in these areas, in that the surfaces are "built up". Now, if you look at the SL ANH in those areas, it is actually flattened out a bit, and the deviation in curvature is more noticeable. I found this was also the case for the original screen ANH mask, so at least the SL reflected that. The SL is also thinner in those areas compared to the TD. Now keep in mind I'm talking about something that is on the surface, a patch of sorts that makes the surface thicker. But the end result is these patches actually round out the curvature of the mask in the rear, and on the TD those patches are cut through, as if they were actually larger and we are only seeing maybe three quarters of them. So they are not just some kind of repair, they were carefully put there by someone interested in making the rear of the mask more true in terms of the roundness. It is such a very subtle change that one couldn't really appreciate it at first, but after getting the SL I realized that they were there for a reason. So naturally I proceeded to go back and look for this more rounded profile on those rear areas and found it on the VP ANH, TM ESB, and DS 20th Century, but again not on the SL ANH.

Another interesting thing about the patches is that, unlike other parts of the surface of the mask that has brush lines going in different orientations, the patches have distinctive brush or sanding lines (whatever they may be) that go almost exclusively vertically up the side of the mask. In this way, I could look for those vertical lines on other castings (but I won't go into that here).

So what I'm showing below here is the rear of the PA ESB mask on the bottom image. The top image I put the TD ANH mask rear section on top of the PA ESB, at 100% opacity, and lined it up as best I could. Just let your eyes wander up and down between the images. The red brackets indicate roughly the extent of the patches on the TD on either side. Lower down on the mask going towards the neck it is quite a bit thinner.



Weird, huh?

Curvature matches, thickness on either side matches (for the most part), and the difference in thickness left vs right matches....namely the left is thinner up top than the right.

Now, the PA ESB mask rear photo isn't exactly great in terms of enlarging it for detail, but I did the best I could and tried to see if there was anything in the TD detail in that area that seemed to correspond. Here's a high mag view of the TD edge on the left side of the mask compared to the same area on the PA ESB....I've put red lines going between similar details that I thought might be easier to make out. It is much easier to do this in a 50% overlay and switch between the layers as I normally do, but whatever this will have to do.



I find it interestingly coincidental that the gelcoat on the PA ESB separates just where on the TD ANH there is a patch.

Now I won't say anything about what I think this means, I'm just showing it because it is one of the frick'in weird things about the TD ANH. Now before some of you jump on me again about this, please just look at your castings from the rear and see if there's anything like this.

Just to try to show the curvature difference, which is quite a challenge given the 3D shape of that area, here's a comparison of the Paul Allen ESB on the left, TD ANH in the middle, and SL ANH on the right in that top right area of the rear of the mask. The PA and TD show that rounded deviation in curvature, whereas the SL flattens out in that area.



I won't presuppose anything about this in regard to the TD but it is something I look for on different castings, among other things. One thing is for sure, it is one of many unique and distinct differences between the UK lineage and the US lineage. And in spite of any suggestion by some of you that it could just be an implication of the "father" idea, that is not my intent, and I don't think so but for other reasons I won't go into. But it still makes me wonder...and I thought it would be interesting to see what kind of feedback I get, positive or critical...

[SithLord]

Since the arguments have focused mainly on the TD ANH, and not really much else, for now here's a big version of the tree. Enjoy! Although this is still less than half the size of the original file...

I hope it doesn't crash anyone's computer or something

[SithLord]

A chat with someone recently brought to mind I should show this image again...one of my desktop images. It is my personal TD ANH copy with reconstructed tube ends, paired with the SL ANH dome.

[Too Much Garlic]

So, seriously, SL, you do know how these things are molded and cast right? The fact that you are finding "similarities" to the flashing and trim areas of the mask and making any conclusions from it is a bit surprising. On the PA Stunt picture it looked like the areas were separating... it could also be shadows or camera contrast distortion. The picture really isn't that great to make any conclusions from.

And the TM original picture is wrong. It never looked like that. That is vadermania's personal ESB copy with the original TM dome. The original TM face is ANH style with some ESB work done to it but still predominantly ANH. In that regard, the TM line is faulty, as you are showing a copy face reworked into ESB with the original dome in the original TM's spot.

[runnriottt]

SL.. I am stumped on the cheek. Maybe I am over looking it... I am sitting here as I type looking at the TD and the DS20thC.

The only thing that I see is a small curve on the lines. The 20th is cleaner, less organic if that makes any sense.

[sskunky]

I'm with Carsten on this.
I don't think you can compare castings from the casting edge. Every one will be different and everyone may contain similar bubbles, separation, lumps bumps you name it. Don't forget the process of Fiber Glassing is done by hand and never the same on two castings even if you try, so I think this evidence is non conclusive. It all boils down to how much gel coat was applied and glass matting etc. And it was done by hand. You can only compare the outside edge, anything inside of that is coincidental.
I'm sure the original modelmakers didn't care if each one was identically laid as long as the looked good from the front.

[sskunky]

Oh,
I forgot to add that the bigger picture is much better. I was beginning to go blind looking at the others....

[Too Much Garlic]

The Vadermonkey stunt v1 isn't from the DP DLX.

[SithLord]

So, seriously, SL, you do know how these things are molded and cast right? The fact that you are finding "similarities" to the flashing and trim areas of the mask and making any conclusions from it is a bit surprising. On the PA Stunt picture it looked like the areas were separating... it could also be shadows or camera contrast distortion. The picture really isn't that great to make any conclusions from.

It is surprising, but look at other castings in that area. I'm not saying the layer is there but the thickness appears to be, for whatever reason. Another example is that the neck on the SL and TD are similar on the bottom edge in areas, although the SL has added material like some kind of molding base edge that was trimmed along with the neck, but obviously that edge on the neck can be molded.

But in my post I am also talking about what is on the SURFACE, not just the rear edge.

And the TM original picture is wrong. It never looked like that. That is vadermania's personal ESB copy with the original TM dome. The original TM face is ANH style with some ESB work done to it but still predominantly ANH. In that regard, the TM line is faulty, as you are showing a copy face reworked into ESB with the original dome in the original TM's spot.

That photo is from TM's formal introduction of the TM ESB on TPD. So I put it in. I can easily replace it with the TM as TM got it. That doesn't make the lineage faulty, Carsten. Unless you are saying that those three helmets I put in the TM lineage did not come from the TM ESB?

The TM ESB helmet is ESB, it is reportedly from the ESB production, which I agree with. So how could it not be ESB? The dome is ESB, the mask has the neck extension we see on some ESB masks. So unless you have evidence that the TM ESB helmet came from ANH then it is along the ESB line, not the ANH line.

The TM mask is a copy of an ESB mask that was modified. So it is ESB. If it was a raw unmodified ANH mask that came from before ESB then I would put it up where the TD is, but it isn't.

[SithLord]

I'm with Carsten on this.
I don't think you can compare castings from the casting edge. Every one will be different and everyone may contain similar bubbles, separation, lumps bumps you name it.

That's the point, they are not different in those areas in terms of curvature, and in terms of thickness the TD, TM and Paul Allen ESB are remarkably similar. It is there for anyone to see, regardless of what kind of variability you get in the casting process.

Don't forget the process of Fiber Glassing is done by hand and never the same on two castings even if you try, so I think this evidence is non conclusive. It all boils down to how much gel coat was applied and glass matting etc. And it was done by hand. You can only compare the outside edge, anything inside of that is coincidental.
I'm sure the original modelmakers didn't care if each one was identically laid as long as the looked good from the front.

If you have a raised part of a casting, like a hump or hill, higher than the surface surrounding it, and you fill that with resin and fiberglass, then you cut that, it will be thicker the same way each time...it is the OUTSIDE thickness of that area that matters, not the inside, not inside of the fiberglass. Because the lay of resin and fiberglass tends to be uniform on the inside except in areas like the tusk tubes (depending on whether the person wanted to fill those areas or not).

[SithLord]

The Vadermonkey stunt v1 isn't from the DP DLX.

Ok, what did Mike make his first stunt helmet from? Not the one based on the TM, the one before that....

[SithLord]

SL.. I am stumped on the cheek. Maybe I am over looking it... I am sitting here as I type looking at the TD and the DS20thC.

The only thing that I see is a small curve on the lines. The 20th is cleaner, less organic if that makes any sense.

No, I mean the top surface of the cheek, not the edge. Your particular TD may not show that, although it depends on how it was prepped for finishing...

[CSMacLaren]

At least one of the Gypsyboy helmets come from a Hollywood Props base, not a Rubie's.

[SithLord]

Thanks, Mac. Yes just because I posted a larger version by no stretch means that it is a final version.


Here's the right side rear top edge of the TD mask compared to the PA at higher resolution. The red bars indicate roughly where the patch begins and ends (just on the outside of the boundary so you can see where it goes from top to bottom from thin to thick and then back to thin again). I also point out a detail in the red brackets that might be similar although of course it is limited by resolution and so I could just be seeing things. But the main points are the changes in thickness and the deviations in curvature.



Normally I wouldn't really care about this except that it is strange that in this area there is a patch on the TD. If it is real or not I don't know, but it is just another small example of what I study among castings.

[Too Much Garlic]

That photo is from TM's formal introduction of the TM ESB on TPD. So I put it in. I can easily replace it with the TM as TM got it. That doesn't make the lineage faulty, Carsten. Unless you are saying that those three helmets I put in the TM lineage did not come from the TM ESB?

The TM ESB helmet is ESB, it is reportedly from the ESB production, which I agree with. So how could it not be ESB? The dome is ESB, the mask has the neck extension we see on some ESB masks. So unless you have evidence that the TM ESB helmet came from ANH then it is along the ESB line, not the ANH line.

Yes, and the formal introduction was the original TM dome with a JRX ESB modified facemask, so NOT the fully original TM.

I'm not questioning it's placement, I'm questioning the photo you are showing as the TM original, which it is simply NOT.

So I guess the small ANH chin vent and Tantive IV surface details preserved in the TM facemask cast negates it as being ANH style? WTF? It didn't come with a dome ring, larger chin vent or many of the other ESB details, so regardless of how you are pushing the labeling, it is not the right picture and the facemask is NOT ESB style, unless you'll call the VP ESB or RotJ style as well. And since we have heard time and time again that the masks came out ANH style and was altered into their respective final look... labeling it as anything other than ANH style when clearly not all ESB finishing features were done to the cast, but still HUGE amounts of ANH specific details were left intact, is just flat out weird.

[SithLord]

So I guess the small ANH chin vent and Tantive IV surface details preserved in the TM facemask cast negates it as being ANH style? WTF? It didn't come with a dome ring, larger chin vent or many of the other ESB details, so regardless of how you are pushing the labeling, it is not the right picture and the facemask is NOT ESB style, unless you'll call the VP ESB or RotJ style as well. And since we have heard time and time again that the masks came out ANH style and was altered into their respective final look... labeling it as anything other than ANH style when clearly not all ESB finishing features were done to the cast, but still HUGE amounts of ANH specific details were left intact, is just flat out weird.

Does TM call it the TM ANH? No.

It is an ESB helmet Carsten.

Why do we call the BM ROTJ a ROTJ and not the BM ANH?

The TM ESB helmet came as a complete helmet and clearly as ESB and from ESB. Just because it has the chin vent doesn't make it an ANH mask. It's pattern came from a mold taken from an ANH mask, but that doesn't make it ANH.

If the TD ANH mask came from ESB it would be an ESB mask. It doesn't matter if it is a template or unfinished or without the chin vent cut out. It is certainly ANH-style or type, but this tree is not a lineage of TYPE, it is a lineage of RELATIONSHIP, Carsten.

The VP is known to have been combined with a ROTJ dome, but the TM wasn't combined from random castings, ok?

The TM mask is ANH-like, ANH-style, but it isn't an ANH mask if it came from ESB, if it came from an ESB mold, if it came from the ESB production. THAT is why it goes in the lineage where it is.

So what do you want to do? Separate the TM mask from its dome and call it TM ANH mask and TM ESB dome and then what? Where do the mask and dome go in the lineage? The ESB dome is from ESB, its an original, at least TM and I both think so. The mask then? I suppose you want to put it from mold taken from the ANH directly? That isn't the case. There is no evidence that the original ANH mask was permanently modified so there is no basis for the TM mask to have come from the original ANH, but rather through an intermediate made as the same generation as an ESB mask. I show clearly in the lineage that ALL ESB masks come from the original ANH. By your logic they are ALL ANH. And that makes completely no sense. By your logic the BM ROTJ is ANH. So your tree would look like this...the original ANH and EVERYTHING coming directly off of it. That isn't how a lineage tree is put together because it is supposed to show the relationships between castings, not their ORIGINAL source with just one branch.

[Too Much Garlic]

Thomas, seriously... what?

I keep telling you I don't argue about the placement, I argue about the picture you are using as that is NOT the original TM helmet.

Whether the facemasks all start out ANH style and is later converted has nothing to do with where I would place them on the tree. And you have NO proof that the neck extension was a permanent addition to the source facemask that was molded. You keep arguing that the filling and additions were permanent. They clearly weren't, otherwise you'd have the same chin vent style filling on the SL as well AND on the original ANH mask. It was removable, and that is fact, so don't confuse the subject by arguing about permanent additions to anything prior to molding. Everything we've seen shows it was removable, so you are arguing about something that simply didn't happen.

All fiberglass pieces needs trimming. The fact that you are bothering with cast thickness and edges that would all have been trimmed is just beyond me. Every cast comes with flashing or a lip that has to be removed. Name one moldmaker and caster working with open ended molds that doesn't do that.

You are making assumptions based on details you are clearly misinterpreting and I'm beginning to wonder how much knowledge you actually have about moldmaking and casting, 'cause you are making claims that simply doesn't make sense. We've had several moldmakers and casters in this thread and several other threads openly dispute some of your claims about moldmaking.

So, I will state this as very clearly as I can and then I think I'll simply remove myself from this thread as it is simply not worth arguing this with you.

Several sources have confirmed that all original facemasks start out as ANH style and then work is done to it. Regardless of whether they were cast for ESB or RotJ or tours, they all started out as ANH style and work was then done to them to turn them into a specific other look. That's pretty much a fact that nearly all Vader enthusiasts now acknowledge.

You call the SL ANH... why? Just because it comes with an ANH dome? The facemask means nothing? It wasn't cast during ANH, so why are you calling it an ANH? By your logic it should be something else. You keep saying the TD didn't come with a neck extension and wasn't cast with lenses... but you still call it ANH? Why? By your logic the style of the facemask doesn't matter. The TM facemask has had some ESB detailing and light sanding done to it, but it still retains pretty amazing ANH specific details, but it is clear to anyone that the mold lineage it came from has direct links to the screen used ANH Tantive IV look. Are you disputing that it has those details? Are you saying it is cleaned up, had a dome mount added, sanded, filled, altered into 100% ESB look? Is that what you are saying? It's certainly what you are hinting at... at least it sounds like that. If not, then you are not making your point clear enough. The VP facemask is also ANH style... but because it was cast later it can't be ANH style? WHAT? And when they first arrived in the community, very few knew that it came with a neck extension as well.

I'm sorry... this is just getting beyond ridiculous arguing about this. I don't argue placement, but to call the TM facemask an ESB, is like calling a Rubies Supreme accurate. It's that level of weird.

[Vadermonkey]

Thomas, my stunt V1 dome was based from the DPD but the faceplate/neck form itself was from the Rubies statue face.

[SithLord]

Thomas, seriously... what?

I keep telling you I don't argue about the placement, I argue about the picture you are using as that is NOT the original TM helmet.

Oh? Really? Huh. As I mentioned that is easy to replace with one that TM took of the helmet before it was stripped.

Whether the facemasks all start out ANH style and is later converted has nothing to do with where I would place them on the tree. And you have NO proof that the neck extension was a permanent addition to the source facemask that was molded.

Permanent or not, it is only seen in ESB. And the TD doesn't have it.

You keep arguing that the filling and additions were permanent. They clearly weren't, otherwise you'd have the same chin vent style filling on the SL as well AND on the original ANH mask.

No I meant the eyebrow extensions on the TM. You don't see those carried over to any other castings. I didn't argue at all that filled chin vent on the original ANH was permanent.

It was removable, and that is fact, so don't confuse the subject by arguing about permanent additions to anything prior to molding. Everything we've seen shows it was removable, so you are arguing about something that simply didn't happen.

The interior of the eye sockets, the sides of the nosebridge, the inside of the gaps between the teeth, and the eyebrows all received refining attention on the father of the TM. You cannot reverse those kinds of changes, Carsten. That's what I meant.

All fiberglass pieces needs trimming. The fact that you are bothering with cast thickness and edges that would all have been trimmed is just beyond me. Every cast comes with flashing or a lip that has to be removed. Name one moldmaker and caster working with open ended molds that doesn't do that.

Look at your TM and tell me it is different then. It isn't. In fact you can see the similarity in terms of thickness and you can see the vertical patches on the TM clearly with the vertical sanding lines. I know about lips and I know about grounds. But it doesn't matter because where the edge meets the ground, and you cut it, if the casting is thicker at that point because the mold impression is slightly deeper, because of a raised area on the original mask, then you will see those differences in thickness.

You are making assumptions based on details you are clearly misinterpreting and I'm beginning to wonder how much knowledge you actually have about moldmaking and casting, 'cause you are making claims that simply doesn't make sense. We've had several moldmakers and casters in this thread and several other threads openly dispute some of your claims about moldmaking.

I know enough. And the castings SHOW it. The similarities are undeniable. And you can look at your VP and even 20th C castings and see some of that asymmetry and divergence in thickness remaining. It is telltale. And those castings are from completely different people/molds. So your argument is moot.

So, I will state this as very clearly as I can and then I think I'll simply remove myself from this thread as it is simply not worth arguing this with you.

Several sources have confirmed that all original facemasks start out as ANH style and then work is done to it.

That doesn't mean they come from an ANH mold Carsten. You yourself say "START OUT AS ANH STYLE". That means you cannot say "START OUT FROM AN ANH MOLD". That implies a mold from the ANH production.

Regardless of whether they were cast for ESB or RotJ or tours, they all started out as ANH style and work was then done to them to turn them into a specific other look. That's pretty much a fact that nearly all Vader enthusiasts now acknowledge.

So? That doesn't change what a lineage is. It is about relationships and the TM ESB isn't from ANH! It isn't from an ANH mold! It is from a mold probably taken during ESB of an ANH template, itself probably also not even from ANH! It has ANH features, if you saw it by itself it would clearly be taken for an ANH mask. But it came from ESB and came with an original ESB dome. So? The practical definition of what a helmet is is based on what movie it is from, Carsten, and that is how the lineage is put together, not based on the grandfather or great-grandfather of a casting. Otherwise why have a tree at all if you are just going to make the simplistic distinction that all masks come from ANH? We knew that already for, what, maybe 10 years ever since Chris King made that deduction based on the 20th Century tabs.

You call the SL ANH... why? Just because it comes with an ANH dome?

No because it came from a mold taken off the original ANH and that mold was itself made during or shortly after the ANH production. And if that is not an ANH helmet what the heck is? It doesn't have a neck extension, it doesn't have smaller mouth triangle, it doesn't have refinement work done to it, and it didn't come with an ESB dome. How obvious can it be?

The facemask means nothing?

Of course it means something, but the SL ANH came from an ILM mold that was complete, with the helmet and dome, as a pair, taken from the original ANH helmet. So it is ANH.

It wasn't cast during ANH, so why are you calling it an ANH?

Because it came directly from the original ANH helmet BEFORE ESB, NOT DURING ESB. Was the TM ESB made BEFORE ESB????

[\QUOTE]
By your logic it should be something else. You keep saying the TD didn't come with a neck extension and wasn't cast with lenses... but you still call it ANH? Why? By your logic the style of the facemask doesn't matter.[/QUOTE]

So? The original ANH didn't have a neck extension either. And the TD if was cast from the original ANH mask at some point, obviously was cast when the lenses were either removed or before the lenses were put in, but probably the latter since I think Brian sculpted lenses into the original sculpture.

And you are oversimplifying my logic. The criteria for being ANH are obviously having all the features of ANH and also being cast from an ANH casting and an additional possible criterion but not absolutely necessary is that it was cast during ANH or the mold came from ANH.

You can call the TM an ANH all day long if you like, but for the purpose of showing relationships in the lineage, it isn't an ANH mask. If you want to just lump together all the ANH masks, no matter what they came from, then please by all means go ahead and make your tree like that. But that doesn't show RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN CASTINGS, all it shows is that this looks like ANH and this looks like ESB and this looks like ROTJ, but that doesn't tell us anything about relationships. In a tree like this, the branches, branch points, and even technically speaking the branch lengths can all mean something.

The TM facemask has had some ESB detailing and light sanding done to it, but it still retains pretty amazing ANH specific details, but it is clear to anyone that the mold lineage it came from has direct links to the screen used ANH Tantive IV look. Are you disputing that it has those details?

Of course not, the TM has some beautiful gorgeous sumptuous details, undeniably so. And some clearly ANH-specific. But Carsten, what about the Paul Allen ESB mask? Or the hero ESB mask? They have ANH-specific details as well. So are they ANH masks? By your logic they are. So what's then the point of having a tree? What's then the point of having ANH vs ESB vs ROTJ masks? You are diluting the categorization for the purpose of wanting the TM to be an ANH only mask and it simply is not BECAUSE IT CAME FROM ESB WITH AN ESB DOME and seems also to have been possibly some kind of project to refine the ANH look. It is therefore ESB. If the TD ANH was also some kind of project to alter the ANH mask, could it have been done during ESB? Sure that is possible, but then it would have signs of being from ESB, being like the TM, being like the hero ESB, but that isn't the case. If it has details earlier than the SL ANH, then how could it be an ESB project? If I find out it is, then I would call it an ESB mask. You think an auction house would call the TM ESB an helmet from ANH? No, they would say it is from ESB. Do you think collectors care that it is "ANH-like"? No, they care where it comes from, from ESB. That it IS ESB.

Are you saying it is cleaned up, had a dome mount added, sanded, filled, altered into 100% ESB look? Is that what you are saying?

No, but it is from ESB and clearly could have been some kind of ESB project. Unless you think all that was done after ESB? The ESB originals, Carsten, have the mounting rings added and chin vents cut out. By your logic they then are still ANH, which makes no sense.

It's certainly what you are hinting at... at least it sounds like that. If not, then you are not making your point clear enough. The VP facemask is also ANH style... but because it was cast later it can't be ANH style? WHAT? And when they first arrived in the community, very few knew that it came with a neck extension as well.

It is ANH style, but it isn't from ANH. It came later for sure. Certainly its grandfather or great grandfather could have been ANH, but do we know when exactly it was cast? I'm willing to call it the VP ANH, because we DON'T know when it was made, just as I call the TD ANH an ANH but also because of other reasons I've gone into here. But the TM ESB source is at least as well as we can gather at this point, clear. Sure there's more work to be done about sourcing it exactly, but I'm reasonably confident about saying it is from ESB and that is a compliment to the casting. I bid on the TM ESB and it wasn't because it was an ANH casting, Carsten, I bid on it because I knew it was either original or directly from an original ESB.

I'm sorry... this is just getting beyond ridiculous arguing about this. I don't argue placement, but to call the TM facemask an ESB, is like calling a Rubies Supreme accurate. It's that level of weird.

No it isn't, it makes perfect sense. If it came from ESB it is ESB, just as the Paul Allen ESB is ESB. We don't say the Paul Allen ESB is the Paul Allen ANH just because the mask looks like ANH?

[SithLord]

Thomas, my stunt V1 dome was based from the DPD but the faceplate/neck form itself was from the Rubies statue face.

Thanks Mike for chiming in and clarifying that. You certainly made it look much better than either of those sources.

I suppose I should probably also put the Rubies statue helmet up on the lineage as well....

But also if I had a front view I could put your new stunt helmet based on the TM in the lineage...

[stormtrooperguy]

Don't forget the process of Fiber Glassing is done by hand and never the same on two castings even if you try, so I think this evidence is non conclusive. It

Even beyond edge detail, all it would take would be a bit of pressure, a slightly misaligned shell, or any number of other things to result in subtly different casts.

While I'm not even amateur compared to the folks that made the originals, I've seen variations in even simple 2 part block mold castings... having the clamping straps a few inches off can cause a slight warp someplace else.

[SithLord]

Even beyond edge detail, all it would take would be a bit of pressure, a slightly misaligned shell, or any number of other things to result in subtly different casts.

While I'm not even amateur compared to the folks that made the originals, I've seen variations in even simple 2 part block mold castings... having the clamping straps a few inches off can cause a slight warp someplace else.

Sure, absolutely, that can happen. But you don't see that on Vader masks, at least not authentic ones. Otherwise you would see also deviations in the shape of the crown of the head, of where Dave Prowse' temples were, etc., and you don't. Sure if the entire casting came out of the mold wrong, there can be for example greater overall width in the casting, or the rear part of the side of the faces pulled inward or outward more, but at least castings I've received do not show deviations in curvature on the scale I show here. If one did, that wouldn't discount the trend.

And if the castings were so different in those areas on account of casting flaws, I wouldn't even compare the rear edges or rear profiles to begin with.

I've compared the neck profiles on the TD, SL, TM, 20th C, and VP and the similarities are astonishing. You would think people would trim their castings differently, but they didn't. Where the neck bends around the rear can vary slightly in curvature, but that isn't the area I'm talking about.

I have a casting in my collection with a clear dimple in it that I know is not on the original. That would arise from, for example, having a thin silicone mold and there being premature release in that area from the mold. But even then it is really obvious to see that kind of fault. If it was a fault on account of how the casting came out of the mold, then the original ANH had that fault and why wasn't it then propagated down through all the other castings in the lineage? And it isn't just one side, it is on both sides of the top edge implying that it isn't just an anomaly of a pull in one place. Take away the filler material on the TD and you would have the same curvature as the SL or the original...that same flattened area on each side in the rear.

[Vadermonkey]

Thanks Mike for chiming in and clarifying that. You certainly made it look much better than either of those sources.

I suppose I should probably also put the Rubies statue helmet up on the lineage as well....

But also if I had a front view I could put your new stunt helmet based on the TM in the lineage...

Yes the Rubies statue might as well be added also.

As for my 'definitive' stunt helmet project, it is still on a shelf while I finish some projects I have going for others but I hope to have it finished within the next few months.

[Too Much Garlic]

Yup... The ESB helmets started out ANH style and was then converted. Since the TM facemask wasn't converted fully into ESB it retains a large number of ANH specific details outnumbering the ESB specific work done to it, so yes, I call it ANH style, because it doesn't have the defining features that would make it ESB style, like dome mount, softening and filling of the features and larger chin vent. The dome is 100% ESB!

You confuse style with production. I'm not talking production here. And you are not showing the original TM facemask in that picture and that imo is misrepresenting the TM original.

Personally, I won't go into the debate about the TD. I understand your reasons for not stripping it of paint as is fairly likely it may be original paintwork and is well worth preserving... but I know what paint can do, even seemingly thin layers of paint... and what it does is hiding what lies beneath. The TM is a PERFECT example of that - sure... it was painted with thick layers of paint... sure. Hell... lots of people argued that it was a soft cast and lacked original details. Well guess what... it was all under the paint. Unless the paint is removed you really have no clue what was done to the cast... and if you think professionals would do patchwork as visible as some Vader helmet vendors are doing, then you are sadly mistaken. Filling and repair work can be very well hidden under the paint - just check any restoration project or car repair workshop where any visible fix is considered poor workmanship.

I am not asking you to remove the paint. All I'm saying is that you are making conclusion you simply cannot make about that cast.

I am open to the possibility that the original ANH wasn't fitted with a neck extension when molded for what we call the UK mold and that it was added later to a cast from that mold. Sure, it's a possibility. It is also a possibility that the ANH helmet DID have the neck extension added to the mask for the UK mold and then it was removed after the molding was done. I'm open to the possibilities. Are you?

It simply doesn't make sense that the TD came from a mold without lenses. As I've explained before - the mold had to have something there at the lens area, either lens impressions or a flat area to close the open eye socket in the mold. Everyone molds helmets like that from troopers to Vader and the area is simply trimmed later. Show me one moldmaker who doesn't do that.

And what I've seen of the SL it is lacking a whole lot of production seen detail, so I'm still wondering why it could have come from a mold made before the end of production, when the original helmet is seen at the beginning of the tours with those same production seen details. Another thing that doesn't make sense.

I hate to argue this, 'cause it just seems like I'm slamming all these pieces. I'm simply not. They are cool pieces. It's just some of the claims attached to them that rubs me the wrong way. I'm not saying the TM is flawless... why should I? It's a nice ANH style mask with some ESB style work done to it. It's not perfect They all have flaws and they all lack that perfect 100% Tantive look. They are close... the closest we've seen yet... but I'm not attached to the casts... I'm attached to the look. I only have so much money, so I don't have a huge collection of Vader helmets, but it would be nice to have them all... just for their uniqueness and their individual features, strengths and weaknesses.