Jun 6, 2013, 10:07 PM - Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
I mean really? Best Trek film ever? Come on!---
So the film opens with a new “Captain”, who is commanding the Enterprise on a training mission full of cadets. The mission goes awry and everyone ends up “dead.”
Except they’re not dead, it was all a simulation; a “no win” situation designed to test the reaction of a commander “facing death.”
How are they supposed to “face death” if they know it is all a simulation? They aren’t travelling through space. They aren’t parked in spacedock. They aren’t even on the Enterprise! They are in a simulator at the Academy on Earth! They “know” it isn’t real to begin with, so what’s the point of all the play acting?
So during the simulation, Saavik (a Vulcan) let’s out an expletive when she finds out the stranded ship is in the middle of the Neutral Zone. Umm... wouldn’t saying “damn” be considered illogical and emotional by a Vulcan? She also has a dramatic “pause” after Spock “dies.” Why would she be affected by this? Isn’t she a Vulcan in complete control of her emotions? Not to mention she knows it’s all fake anyway.
So the Neutral Zone is now a giant sphere in space controlled by the Klingons. Wait, what?
I thought the Neutral Zone was a lightyears long “line in the sand” separating the Federation and the Romulan Star Empire? Saavik refers to the Gamma Hydra system during her log; the same system in The Deadly Years, in which Commodore Stocker took the Enterprise into the Neutral Zone and was attacked by... the Romulans!
Guess they figured the “real” fans wouldn’t notice the change, or referring to the Gamma Hydra system was supposed to be a shout out to the fans, without the filmmakers actually doing their homework.
Why would it be a sphere anyway, unless the Klingon homeworld was at the center, but the sphere didn’t look that big.
Saavik asks for advice, and Kirk says to pray as the Klingons don’t take prisoners... Except they took Kirk and Spock prisoner in Errand of Mercy. Kruge killed his gunner because he wanted prisoners. Not to mention Rura Penthe.
Why is Saavik already an ensign if she hasn’t graduated yet?
(EDIT-Oops! Even "I" after having seen this film hundreds, if not over a thousand times got this wrong; she was a lieutenant, not an ensign. Makes the nitpick worse doesn't it? )
So Reliant is looking for a lifeless planet for the Genesis experiment and returns to the Ceti Alpha system (which, you know.. has already been charted). Except they managed to overlook the fact that an ENTIRE FLIPPING PLANET IS MISSING! I mean they couldn’t count the number of dots?
So this means these “explorers” are either complete idiots or...
Ceti Alpha Six exploded, with a destructive power strong enough to vaporize any and all remaining debris (otherwise why wouldn’t there be an asteroid field where Ceti Alpha Six’s orbit used to be), and caused Ceti Alpha Five not only to be laid to waste, but caused that planet to perfectly assume the previous orbit of destroyed Ceti Alpha Six.
I mean why else would they set course for Ceti Alpha Six, and end up parked around Ceti Alpha Five?
Who wrote this? A ten year old? And here I was thinking Star Trek had a believable amount of “science” in it. The entire plot of the film hangs on them mistaking one planet for another!
Why didn’t Spock understand that Ceti Alpha Six was unstable enough to explode in a mere six months in Space Seed?
What’s wrong with the Reliant’s sensors? The USS Grissom was able to detect ONE photon tube and pin point its exact location on Genesis. However the Reliant only has a “minor energy flux reading on one dynoscanner”, when in fact it is missing approximately FIFTY adult human beings! Despite the inhospitable environment, I doubt 50 people should only produce a minor reading (which is mistaken for “particles of
Chekov recognizes the Botany Bay belt buckle and realizes where they actually are. Why didn’t he just call for an emergency beam out? (I won’t go into the whole “why does Chekov know who Khan is, why does Khan remember Chekov’s face thing. No Sir I won’t.)
Khan’s men were more or less the same age as him in Space Seed, however everyone seems much younger than Khan now. Shouldn’t they all at least look the same age as Khan? At least a “little” older than they do in the film?
So in The Motion Picture, Kirk was pretty irritated that he had to take a shuttle over to the Enterprise when the transporters were not working. Yet this time they take him over in a shuttle again. Are the transporters still not working? Why is Kirk okay with it now?
The shuttle is told to approach and dock with the port side torpedo bay. So why does it dock with the engineering section?
Well the uniforms certainly look much more militaristic now don’t they? But hold on, I thought Starfleet “wasn’t” the military. Oh wait, David Marcus says that scientists were always “pawns of the military” when referring to the approaching Reliant. So I guess they “are” the military now... Even though I thought they were primarily explorers and scientists.
When Saavik is ordered to take the Enterprise out of spacedock, Kirk looks like a nervous Dad giving his daughter her first driving lesson. Why is he worried? Sulu is actually working the controls and he’s not about to ding the ship into anything.
Once again the Enterprise is the only ship within range to check out the problem on Regula 1. They say they are the “only ship in the quadrant.” I thought there were only four quadrants in the entire Milky Way Galaxy? I guess all the ships were exploring... Oops! Sorry I meant “patrolling” (they’re the military remember) in Beta Quadrant that day.
When Reliant approaches the Enterprise, Khan quotes a Klingon proverb. When did he learn this? The last time he had access to a library was aboard the Enterprise. Even if the Enterprise databanks contained this proverb, I think Khan spent his precious time studying the
engineering/ship schematics and not alien cultures.
After Khan’s initial attack, the “main energizers” are knocked out. I assume this includes the warp drive otherwise why wouldn’t they flee? So if the warp drive is out (according to the Enterprise’s redesign in The Motion Picture) the phasers won’t work either as they channel power through the warp engines. Yet Kirk fires back at Khan with phasers.
Why does Scotty bring a severely burned cadet Preston to the bridge instead of directly to sickbay? And why does Saavik the Vulcan have an emotional reaction to cadet Preston’s condition?
In the underground facility on Regula, Carol Marcus muses that it took the Starfleet Corps of Engineers ten months to tunnel out the storage area. Ten months? Seriously? What happened to phasers that can vaporize rock or transporters that can remove it instantly? Scotty beamed up 400 tons of water and whales in Star Trek IV. I guess the Starfleet Corps of Engineers took a page out of Scotty’s book and grossly exaggerated their time to completion.
When the Enterprise enters the Mutara Nebula, everyone lurches forward except Kirk.
During the battle, Spock tells Kirk that Khan thinks “two dimensionally.”
However when the two ships are on a collision course moments earlier, Kirk has the Enterprise do a hard right turn, exposing the Enterprise to a broadside shot.
Even after Kirk “gets it” and has the Enterprise drop down 10 000 meters (because Khan is just circling around on the same plane), after Khan passes overhead, Kirk has the Enterprise pop back up behind the Reliant.
Why not just tilt the Enterprise’s nose up 90 degrees and shoot the Reliant from underneath it as it passed over?
Nobody considers beaming the Genesis device off the Reliant out into deep space. Spock need not have had to die! (REFUTED)
(EDIT Sept 9 '13): Spock has to enter the radiation filled chamber to save the ship... why are there no effective anti-radiation suits on the Enterprise?
During Spock’s eulogy, Kirk says that Spock’s soul was the “most human.” However in Star Trek VI, Kirk tells Spock that “everyone’s human” and Spock finds this remark insulting.
And Saavik the Vulcan cries her eyes out.
This is Trek’s best? Pffft!
UPDATE Nov 23 2013:
Okay to prevent any further confusion from future readers you have to appreciate why I started this thread:
1- Star Trek II is not only my favourite Star Trek film, it is my favourite film of all. I've probably watched it over 1000 times since first seeing it as a twelve year old in 1982.
2- At the time this thread was created, there was a thread titled "Why do so many people think Star Trek Into Darkness was bad?." That thread was created by someone who watched ST:ID, liked it, and couldn't understand why there were so many people complaining about how bad it was.
3- The complaints generally circled around nitpicks about technology being incorrect (for the ST universe), changed premises from the first film, characters acting out of character, on and on and on and on and on (you get the idea)...
However these nitpicks were nothing worse than what "every" Star Trek film suffers from (even Trek at its finest hour with ST:II). Magical technology that is created for one particular Star Trek film and never heard of again (such as ST:IV's "Transparant Aluminum"). Or tech behaving in ways it shouldn't (ST:ID's communicators that can transmit messages across several lightyears in realtime like a regular phone).
So I created "this" thread pointing out all the major nitpicks I could find in my favourite film. I tore it to pieces deliberately to prove a point that "every" Trek film has its share of nitpicks. However it would seem that when it comes to nitpicks, "great" Trek films get a free pass, while "JJTrek" gets crucified.
That was the point behind this thread.
Last edited by SSgt Burton; Nov 23, 2013 at 6:42 PM.
Jun 6, 2013, 10:11 PM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
Because it is. (Doesn't feel like arguing on the internet,,,)
Jun 6, 2013, 10:15 PM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
Not to disrespect all the effort you put into your post but the answer is...... Opinion.
For me, I loved Khan because I was a kid when it came out, I had seen the show on television in reruns and remembered Khan, the call back with a classic villain was just plain awesome, especially given that Khan (in my mind) was basically the equivalent of a nazi-super soldier (read anti captain america) it was a pretty dark film for its time, the battle scene with Kirk and crew pulling a Rocky two and coming back from being crippled in battle with the great scenes of the battle damaged reliant, and jebus, they killed Spock.
It had a far more epic feel to me than any other Trek Film. Also, keep in mind that a lot, and I mean a lot of Trek fans have been around a long time (See Long in the Tooth) there is a serious nostalgia factor for many of us, and even though there were some great ST works done after the Orginal series and films, look at what else was happening on TV and in Theatres around the time Khan came out. It was pretty magnificent to have a cool Sci Fi film that was actually well done.
Jun 6, 2013, 10:25 PM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
Jun 6, 2013, 10:33 PM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
It's damn near perfect because it showcases each character's strong suit. There's also the an exploration that has never happened for the crew - the acceptance of getting old. I only wished they had followed through with all they set up - David and Savvik were meant to start a romance in the upcoming films - They were also penned by Nick Meyer to take the place of the characters in case the original crew wanted to retire (as Nimoy was always threatening) David would be science - like Spock where Savvik would rep Starfleet.
It was also developed by Nicholas Meyer who himself is a genius when it comes to storytelling. Unlike Orci and Kurtzman - Meyer had just shocked the country with The Day After right before Trek - his earlier work was Time after Time - and The Seven Percent Solution. Being a writer, I've been a fan of Meyer since I was 13. I read every interview he did in Starlog and learned he was considered the top script doctor in Hollywood for many years - working on Love Story (putting out a book called The Love Story Story). He was the one who brought in the red band jackets and correct tone for all the Trek movies to come - not easy to do.
And Dude - you totally pull that outfit off - not many people can -- correctly
Jun 6, 2013, 10:42 PM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
This is entirely true. Difference being at it's finest hour the film is engaging enough to make you not care.
SSgt Burton said:
That said I don't really have a problem with STID. I did enjoy it, just didn't think it was that great a Trek film.
Jun 6, 2013, 10:46 PM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
Compare it to the film that came before it, hah!
Trek starship on starship space battles.
Near perfect pacing from a equally near perfect script & story.
Fantastic production design.
The actors firing on all cylinders.
The list goes on and on and...
Jun 6, 2013, 10:55 PM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
Well, Ssgt Burton...you pretty much nailed down the flaws in this film, were one to evaluate it critically.
On the other hand, I tend to think that this movie was as good as it was likely to get. After the ice-cold characterizations presented in The Motion Picture, suddenly we were getting people who seemed that they'd known each other for years. "Jim, be careful." "We will!"...stuff like that. Kirk carrying his book under his arm the same way he carried the "just a book" from Sam Cogley in Court Martial. These details helped.
Come to think of it, my argument thus far doesn't carry as much weight as you observations... ...but dang it, my reactions were emotional and instinctive, not intellectual!
Jun 6, 2013, 11:02 PM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
Afterthought: I am surprised than nowhere in any of the films was a scene of Kirk and Spock at their three-dimensional chess board.
Jun 6, 2013, 11:02 PM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
One point about Saavik - according to a deleted scene, she was half Vulcan, half Romulan. That'd mess anybody up.
Jun 6, 2013, 11:17 PM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
Simple, it had 3 things which made it one of the better if not best Trek Movies.
Bennett, Myer, and Montalban!
Jun 6, 2013, 11:30 PM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
Because, it is. There's not a movie in existence that doesn't contain plot holes. Monday morning quarterbacking is easy in any film when you're looking in from the outside. Characters made bad decisions, as humans do, to add to the tension, plot, and yes, the fun. People also judge movies in hindsight by how they felt when they walk out. I was 15 when I saw the film and it was an amazing experience! That's why it resonates with me.
And this is me.
Jun 6, 2013, 11:44 PM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
SSgt Burton said:
Shhhhhh...dont you know youre only supposed to point out flaws in JJ's Trek??
seriously though, i must say bravo tk that post. i love Wrath of Khan as much as the next Trek fan but its always good to show that the film has flaws just like all films.
Jun 7, 2013, 12:03 AM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
I see what you did there, Kevin...
(And I share your love of TWOK)
Never the less, I'll play-
Let's take, for instance what is perhaps the best known moment from the film:
Kirk screaming "Khaaannnn!!!!!" into the wrist communicator, and it 'echoing' off the exterior of the planet.
Some have suggested that this is the prime example of Shatner's over acting.
However, in this scene, Kirk knows, (while the audience, at least on the first viewing, may not) that their lives depend on Khan buying the misinformation that he overheard when Kirk spoke to Spock about how long the Enterprise would take to repair. And so he gave Khan exactly what he wanted- precisely what was needed to convince Khan that he was beaten, and had nothing left but rage.
Immediately after, when Khan was no longer on the line, he was calm and collected, and then beaming back up to ship.
(Not beaming down for a foot chase and then a moving vehicle fist fight personal rage vendetta... you know, just to pick some random example...)
And, because I can't resist either....
This is me:
Jun 7, 2013, 12:11 AM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
Despite the flaws that have been so painstakingly pointed out (Great job, by the way. And something my friends and I have been pointing out for years.), this was a MOVIE that had been a direct sequel from a televison episode of TOS. How much cooler than that could it possibly get?
As far as non fans enjoying something like this, I had brought a date who had not seen a single episode of TOS, and therefore not a fan, and I vividly recall how she gleefully but quitely clapped her hands when Kirk gave the command to "Fire. ------- FIRE!"
Last edited by BAK55; Jun 7, 2013 at 12:17 AM.
Jun 7, 2013, 3:29 AM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
I guess you had to be there...
Jun 7, 2013, 5:35 AM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
The real victory against Khan's vengeance is not decided by space battles, phaser shoot'em ups, or a prolonged fist fight. As Khan spits his last breath, he dies knowing that the Enterprise cannot get away in time, and unbeknownst to him, his real wish against Kirk was soon to come true.
And indeed, Khan's actions would lead to the death of Spock which would in turn leave Kirk broken, unsure, and most of all, hurt. His best friend is gone, he doubts his own command abilities and now looks back at his prideful past in shame. Everything that Kirk has done has caused him to distance himself away from those important to him and just when he's starting to get things back, they're taken away. But not everything. Spock's sacrifice for the Enterprise was more than just an act to save the ship, it was also to show Kirk that he still has something to live for and that he still has friends and family who do really care for him. The moment where he and his son finally make amends shows Kirk that Spock has done more than save Kirk's life, he's given Kirk another chance to do something right. As Kirk looks towards the Genesis planet and Spock's resting place, he finally understands how much he met to Spock by remembering the gift he gave him on his birthday.
I've done far worse than kill you. I've hurt you. And I wish to go on hurting you
And as the Enterprise sets off with Kirk looking back to Spock's resting place, Kirk's is left with a new sense of purpose and appreciation for the life that he has. When McCoy asks Kirk how he feels, and Kirk replies with "Young. I feel young." Khan's wrath is finally defeated.
"I see the lives for which I lay down my life, peaceful, useful, prosperous and happy, in that England which I shall see no more. I see Her with a child upon her bosom, who bears my name. I see her father, aged and bent, but otherwise restored, and faithful to all men in his healing office, and at peace. I see the good old man, so long their friend, in ten years' time enriching them with all he has, and passing tranquilly to his reward. - I see that I hold a sanctuary in their hearts, and in the hearts of their descendants, generations hence. - It is a far, far better thing that I do, than I have ever done; it is a far, far better rest that I go to than I have ever known."
Jun 7, 2013, 5:57 AM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
Citizen Kane was about the guy's sled. Big deal.
Jun 7, 2013, 6:02 AM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
Seinfeld was a show about nothing.
Jun 7, 2013, 6:10 AM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
You can find flaws in almost every movie. I guess flaws don't really matter when you like everything else enough.
The fact that it is worth talking about says a lot. That is why I like Prometheus.
Jun 7, 2013, 7:00 AM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
Well that's quite a breakdown ! I think most of the reason I love the TOS and the films with that cast (only watched I-IV so far) is nostalgia, I can't seem to get anybody "into" the TOS unless they were already a fan. I wish I had started watching them with my daughter when she was younger, she's far too critical to enjoy it now. What really got me hooked when I saw TWOK was Ricardo, both the concept of continuing his story from TV (creating a bridge from the show to the films, for me) as well as seeing Ricardo reprise his role. Mr. Roarke? what's not to love about that!
I wish I could pull off a Starfleet uniform, Burton you look AWESOME in it! This is NOT me, but it was my reaction to reading the opening post:
Jun 7, 2013, 7:07 AM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
Well played, sir. I am forever thankful so many great films are part of my childhood zeitgeist unspoiled by the mindless ravings of the Internet.
And indeed you look strapping in that uniform.
Jun 7, 2013, 7:17 AM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
Jun 7, 2013, 8:41 AM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
And it took that long to go half a billion miles. Which is a little past Jupiter.
Jun 7, 2013, 9:24 AM - Re: Why do so many people think Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was good?
#1 reason. It is the best. The new unifroms and that excellent field jacket.
The ABC TV Wrath of Khan is the best, just the way the turbo lift scene between Kirk and Saavik is cut with the close ups of their faces before Bones interrupts.
And yes, while some may have hated it, I loved the militarization of Star Fleet.
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