Have you seen 48 Hrs.?
Then you've heard Gorky Park.
Pathetic. I know he's got a reputation, but I'd never heard it til today. Good lord. I'm watching Soviet policemen track down a killer, and while the music plays, all I can think of is James Remar shooting Eddie Murphy.
i've noticed that alot of movie composers seem to recycle their music. You listen to anything by John williams and you'll hear bits and pieces of his other work.
Yeah, like Yoda's Theme in E.T.
And he reused the Raiders March in all the Indy flicks, too!
Hack!
Yeah but Williams has written SO much music that it's inevitable that some of his lesser themes are going to sound similar to the greater ones. But music that sounds "similar" by the same composer is understandable. Music cannibalized note-for-note is something else, and that's what Horner is really bad about. He can write some of the greatest scores and most sweeping themes...and then turn around and use bits of them almost to the note in his next film score. Sections of Trek 2 & 3 are used shamelessly in Aliens, Cocoon AND the remake of Mighty Joe Young, his theme from Glory is clearly recycled in Avatar, and bits of Braveheart are worked into Titanic. Horner is a great composer, no doubt about it...I just don't understand why he gets so lazy in his incidental music.
I think they figure nobody is paying attention and it's faster and easier and who knows maybe the studios dont' want to pay for pieces that take a long time to write. Danny elfman is kind of that way too with his music. Personally other than the Batman theme i think Weird Science when he was with Oingo boingo was his best work lol
I immediately thought of Elfman while I was reading this.
His Batman score impressed me, then I heard his Dick Tracy soundtrack and theme for The Flash and had a case of deja vu.
Wolf
I seem to remember that on the Aliens special edition DVD there was some discussion on this from Horner because the editing ran so long and Cameron kept changing it he had very little time left in the end to score the film before the release date. But yeah, it is kinda a bummer how much he recycled, but the stuff he recycled was still pretty memorable stuff. Doesn't bother me too much.
Hans Zimmer recycles lots of his music and just rarely creates something new nowadays such as Kung Fu Panda, which was well done.
@Calufrax: your Dr. Who avatar creeps the hell out me!
It's from "City of Death" where the Doctor meets the bad guys, hustled in by his henchmen. He pretends to be bored and uninterested to the point of snoozing and gives that little wave. In context it's very funny.YenChih Lin said:
YouTube - Doctor Who 'City of Death' clip
"My dear, I don't think he's as stupid as he seems."
"Nobody could be as stupid as he seems."
He scored Spiderman as well, I kept expecting Batman to show up.The Wolf said:
Didn't Williams use the same notes/chords for Jaws, Star Wars, Superman and Raiders?
Oh, I noticed some Aliens cues in Gorky Park, too. But seriously, 48 Hrs. and Gorky Park are like THE SAME DAMN SCORE. No joke. The only thing missing was the kettle drums from 48 Hrs.darthgordon said:
Agreed. I'm not saying Horner isn't talented. The FIRST time I hear his "new" score, I tend to think it's brilliant. I didn't know he scored STII, so to me, Aliens is the first time I heard that score, and I really enjoy it. Same with Braveheart, and with 48 Hrs. for that matter. But imagine watching, say, Raiders and then watching some other movie entirely and hearing RAIDERS. Like, not just "oh it sort of sounds like it" but it's almost note-for-note.Vermithrax 4 said:
Actually, that's ONE case where I could see there being another justification than "Eh, Elfman's lazy." His stuff sounds very similar, but it's also ENTIRELY possible that the producers of Dick Tracy said "Danny, we want you to write a theme like you did for Batman." I remember when Dick Tracy came out and ALL the marketing was how it was "better than Batman!" and whatnot (since Batman had come out the year before). So, it's possible that in an effort to top Batman, they said "Give us more of the same, Danny." At least, that's my theory.The Wolf said:
Im more bothered by Elliot goldenthall's scores. Alien 3, Intervirew with the vampire and Batman forever all have the same cues in parts.
I've never heard any John williams stuff that sounded the same.
Now John barry's stuff I can usually pick up on pretty quick. Lots o violins.
While John Williams certainly does mimic some of his work, I have never heard him out right lift music from films that were totally unrelated before.
War of the Worlds
Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull
Elfman IS a bit of a one trick pony...but then he can totally surprise you with a score like "Edward Scissorhands" which I still think is one of the most beautiful and original I've every heard in addition to the songs for "A Nightmare Before Christmas". I love Hans Zimmer's work generally and some of it does sound similar...but then he cranks out a knock-out score for "Sherlock Holmes" that's unlike anything he's done before. And can you believe he also did the score for "Driving Miss Daisy"??? Totally unlike his later work.
John Williams had a stretch there during the late '80s and '90s where a lot of his work started sounding similar but he managed to break out of that rut with "Schindler's List" I think, although his score for "Memoirs of a Geisha" does borrow of bit of the sad violin aspects from "Schindler's". But I can't fault him for that simply because the man is so incredibly prolific and when a person has composed that many scores without having to blatantly repeat himself then that is quite a magnificent feat of creativity.
Right. I mean, it's one thing to have a style. It's another thing to be literally copying your work from one film to another.
Maybe the director and studios do ask the composers to make their scores sound like this movie or that for some reason, it does sound like a marketing idea.
Yeah, I never realized how much some composers reused their own work, except Elfman at least. Elfman is talented but his style is just so specific that it mirrors Tim Burton's style. Spider-Man, Men in Black, the Hulk, Dick Tracy, Batman, Planet of the Apes... you could practically segway from one score to the next and not realize they were different scores - at least, that's how it seems to me.
Now, the Nightmare Before Christmas is brilliant... Elfman and Burton's best work IMHO. I can't believe they haven't made a stage play out of this yet - it would lend itself to it amazingly well. I don't even care for stage plays all that much and *I'd* pay to go see something like that.
Horner's Rocketeer soundtrack is my personal all-time favorite. Other than that, I'm not familiar with a whole lot of Horner's other works except for stuff like Star Trek 2.
And if you work backwards- you'll hear bits of Star Trek II in Battle Beyond the Stars.Vermithrax 4 said:
I'm kind of on the fence about this. It used to be that if you heard a certain band on the radio you could instantly recognize them because of their particular "sound".
And if a band did an album that had songs that were very diverse from that "sound", people would say it was a mish-mosh or all over the place.
So it's pretty easy to recognize a Horner score when he (re)uses particular music cues. I consider it as much a signature as ripping off himself.
Kevin
Watch the following movies and see just how repetitive Horner is:
Humanoids from the Deep
Battle Beyond the Stars
Krull
Star Trek II
Star Trek III
48 Hours
Uncommon Valor
Wolfen
Something Wicked This Way Comes
I am sure I missed some but that's all I could think of off the top of my head.
Again, just to be clear, I'm not talking about a "signature sound." I'd say Danny Elfman has a "signature sound" but I'd be hard pressed to say that Sleepy Hollow, the first two Batman films, and Beetlejuice all are the same basic score.
With Horner, though, you get literal lifts from the score. Seriously. Gorky Park IS 48 Hrs. practically. It's not just a "signature sound" (also, Horner then is different from Horner now), and there are certain musical cues he uses across soundtracks, but at least in this isolated case, the action music was virtually identical, minus caribbean kettle drums. No joke. It goes WELL beyond "signature sound."
None of this is to say that Horner's stuff can't still be good, or perfectly paired with the feeling on screen and such. But it IS to say that Horner is probably a bit lazy. Still, nice work if you can get it, I suppose.
I don't think of this as a blanket explanation, but I've also heard of editors or the studio actually putting a composer's old work in a new movie against the composer's wishes, as was the case with Jerry Goldsmith and the first Alien if I remember correctly.
Huh, that's interesting. I guess if they could secure the rights from the original film, they'd be allowed to do so. Still, it strikes me as the kind of thing that would require some legal finagling, simply to avoid tarnishing the composer's reputation.
Oh I'm not arguing with you at all. When Bishop flys the Dropship into the atmosphere processor in "Aliens" it is completely lifted from "Star Trek II" when the crippled Enterprise is attempting to flee during the Genesis countdown.Solo4114 said:
Bits of Ripley "saving the day" in the APC is lifted from the Klingons theme in "Star Trek III".
What I'm saying is that I can live with it is all.
Kevin
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