Had a weird thought about the Terminator films.

I know in the first one it is said that the reason the Terminator goes around shooting all those Sarah Connors is because a lot of info was lost. A lot of people say why doesn't skynet send one back a few generations earlier to kill Sarah or john assuming it can find out this info. My idea, and it's just my odd ball way of doing things is, what if Sarah or John are the only 2 it can safely kill because one of her relatives actually worked on something that led to skynet.

It might not be sure how but it knows that anyone before sarah could be a key link to it becoming self aware (ignoring T3 and Salvation). If it killed an uncle, mother, or father for all it knows it would never become sentient. Then again I am in favor of the fact that it only tries to kill humanity because it's first "memory" is probably information about Sarah Connor trying to blow it up at the Cyberdyne labs.

If they aren't sure which Sarah Conner to kill it would be safe to assume they also wouldn't know which parents had the right Sarah Conner.

Well, to me, I figured the reason why that it didn't send a Terminator back in time before Sarah was born and kill her parents is because Skynet had no information on Sarah except her name (and what would be the odds of it knowing who her parents are).

Plus, the only thing about Skynet and the Connors is the fact that neither side realize that without him, Skynet wouldn't exist at all, and without Skynet, John Connor wouldn't exist either. If one or the other is destroyed before a certain timeframe (i.e. if Skynet is destroyed before it can send the T-800 back to 1984, or if another one is sent to 1984 and succeeds where the past one failed), both Connor and Skynet cease to exist. So, I think that a great ending for the series would be having the Terminator finally killing John in the past (or killing Reese before he can go back in time), and as a result, the future timeline gets rewritten and wiping out everything Skynet has done and John ceasing to exist in the process.

I'd call one of Sarah's family working on something leading to Skynet the twilight zone ending lol. Yeah when you think about it even if skynet wins it might lose because there is no way for it to know if it would still wipe out humanity like in the original timeline. I had a t3 novel that played around with this where the timeline shifts a bit and folks all remember things happening differently.
The entire franchise is really a giant paradox.

Wes R said:

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I'd call one of Sarah's family working on something leading to Skynet the twilight zone ending lol. Yeah when you think about it even if skynet wins it might lose because there is no way for it to know if it would still wipe out humanity like in the original timeline. I had a t3 novel that played around with this where the timeline shifts a bit and folks all remember things happening differently.
The entire franchise is really a giant paradox.

It's actually only a paradox due to the current theories in time travel, which in the current one reveals that it is more likely that we have multiple realities that branch off from one another due to different choices. However, before that (circa 1984), there was the belief that there was only one reality that could be altered. Granted, I know that the multiple timeline thing may have existed back before that, but it probably didn't seem as likely as the one timeline being altered thing.

Wes R said:

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The entire franchise is really a giant paradox.

My biggest gripe with the time travel aspect of The Terminator movie is the future Kyle Reese being the father of John Connor. The only way to accept that fact is, in the original timeline the John Connor who first grew up to be the leader of the Resistance should have a different father. And John Connor born from Kyle Reese grows up to a different John Connor who is well aware of Skynet and the Resistance while growing up. If we go with the theory that Kyle Reese was always the father, it's the "who came first, the chicken or egg?" situation.

CB2001 said:

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It's actually only a paradox due to the current theories in time travel, which in the current one reveals that it is more likely that we have multiple realities that branch off from one another due to different choices. However, before that (circa 1984), there was the belief that there was only one reality that could be altered. Granted, I know that the multiple timeline thing may have existed back before that, but it probably didn't seem as likely as the one timeline being altered thing.

I agree. I tend to consider that it was indeed a single timeline, which keeps getting replaced/altered, as supposed to different realities happening or co-existing at the same time.

You both should get together and write the next film.

Vivek & CB2001

Death Grin said:

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You both should get together and write the next film.

Vivek & CB2001

Actually, you don't want me to write it. If I did, it'd be a reboot of the original film, it'd remove Sarah Connor out of the equation, having John be the main throughout the three films (it's one thing to be told your son will be the savior of the world. It's an entirely different thing to find out you're going to be the savior of the world), and have it set up a Part 2 (where Connor tries to stop Judgement Day, only to fail and it occurring) and Part 3 (where a soldier, against his orders goes back in time to protect him) be a more concise and complete loop.

Honestly, I'd prefer an adaptation of the RoboCop vs. The Terminator comics.

I like that as well.

I can't believe that T5 & 6 will have Arnold in it, as well as using TS as the launch point. Terminator is about the only movie that seriously needs to be rebooted, with sequels in mind, possibly filming it like the LOTR was, back to back to back. New actors? Cameo's for all previous Terminator stars? I don't know.

I just had a terrible thought... what if John was the catalyst that sends Skynet into self awareness. Wouldn't that be a kick in the groin?

Death Grin said:

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I just had a terrible thought... what if John was the catalyst that sends Skynet into self awareness. Wouldn't that be a kick in the groin?

Well, if you think of it in that context of the films that are out, he WAS the catalyst for it becoming self aware. If John hadn't been born, Skynet never would have sent a Terminator back in time to kill his mother Sarah, he wouldn't have sent Reese to protect her, they wouldn't have lead it to the factory (in the deleted scenes, Sarah Connor actually planned on going to Cyberdyne and destroying the factory in hopes of stopping Skynet's existence with the help of Reese, hence the creation of the pipe bombs), the Terminator wouldn't have been crushed in the hydraulic press, the remains wouldn't have been found (in a deleted scene, you see two guys who work there find the crushed processor, and after Sarah is loaded up into the ambulance, it is revealed the factory is Cyberdyne Systems), Miles Dyson wouldn't have reversed engineered it, Skynet wouldn't have been created and it wouldn't have become self aware.

However, due to John being born, Skynet did send a Terminator back in time to kill his mother to stop him from being born, John sent Reese to make sure he protected his mother and conceive him, she and he lead the Terminator to Cyberdyne's factory, crushed it in the hydraulic press, the crushed processor was found by workers of Cyberdyne, Miles Dyson reversed engineered it to create the processor, which then lead to the creation of Skynet, and when it was turned on, it became self aware, caused Judgement Day, tried to wipe out all of humanity, John rose as a leader, and then the loop began again with Skynet sending a Terminator back in time to kill his mother.

Long story short, John is the catalyst for it becoming self aware because he's responsible for it's existence, much like how Skynet is the catalyst for his existence.

CB2001 said:

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Well, if you think of it in that context of the films that are out, he WAS the catalyst for it becoming self aware. If John hadn't been born, Skynet never would have sent a Terminator back in time to kill his mother Sarah, he wouldn't have sent Reese to protect her, they wouldn't have lead it to the factory (in the deleted scenes, Sarah Connor actually planned on going to Cyberdyne and destroying the factory in hopes of stopping Skynet's existence with the help of Reese, hence the creation of the pipe bombs), the Terminator wouldn't have been crushed in the hydraulic press, the remains wouldn't have been found (in a deleted scene, you see two guys who work there find the crushed processor, and after Sarah is loaded up into the ambulance, it is revealed the factory is Cyberdyne Systems), Miles Dyson wouldn't have reversed engineered it, Skynet wouldn't have been created and it wouldn't have become self aware.

However, due to John being born, Skynet did send a Terminator back in time to kill his mother to stop him from being born, John sent Reese to make sure he protected his mother and conceive him, she and he lead the Terminator to Cyberdyne's factory, crushed it in the hydraulic press, the crushed processor was found by workers of Cyberdyne, Miles Dyson reversed engineered it to create the processor, which then lead to the creation of Skynet, and when it was turned on, it became self aware, caused Judgement Day, tried to wipe out all of humanity, John rose as a leader, and then the loop began again with Skynet sending a Terminator back in time to kill his mother.

Long story short, John is the catalyst for it becoming self aware because he's responsible for it's existence, much like how Skynet is the catalyst for his existence.

TL;DR, so I'm just going to pretend you said, "A wizard did it."

-Nick

Death Grin said:

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TL;DR - I got the gist by your wizard comment, but still had to look it up to know exactly what it stood for.

I think it means, "too long, didn't read."

Blasphemy!

Vivek said:

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My biggest gripe with the time travel aspect of The Terminator movie is the future Kyle Reese being the father of John Connor. The only way to accept that fact is, in the original timeline the John Connor who first grew up to be the leader of the Resistance should have a different father. And John Connor born from Kyle Reese grows up to a different John Connor who is well aware of Skynet and the Resistance while growing up. If we go with the theory that Kyle Reese was always the father, it's the "who came first, the chicken or egg?" situation.

That first John Connor who wasn't the son of Reese wouldn't know the war was coming. Without knowing it's coming he wouldn't be prepared and likely would have lost if the greatest military minds couldn't have won either. Further he'd be a completely different person because of the different father, so he wouldn't be the John Connor needed to lead the Resistance anyway. Wrong John Connor loses, so the Machines never bother to kill him, so Kyle Reese is never sent back anyway. The timeline only works if John was always Kyle's son.

The first film is a stable time loop/predestination paradox. The sequels are when things in the timeline get screwy because they break the rules of the first film.

Also, screw killing Sarah's parents, just send another Terminator to get her in 1984 instead of giving her and her ******* kid 13 years to prepare. Idiot Machines need to upgrade their firmware.

Yup, only one reality in T1 and it never changes.

And the ultimate kick in the groin would indeed have been that Skynet became aware due to Sarah and John's actions in T2 - but that would require a substantial rewrite and actually grow balls on that story it severely lacked.

Ignore everything after T1 for new movies and you'd be golden. Try to incorporate the other crap and you are sure to get an overblown turd.

Well, Salvation doesn't contradict the time-travel bits at least. Can't remember how well it fit with T1 beyond that.

Vivek said:

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My biggest gripe with the time travel aspect of The Terminator movie is the future Kyle Reese being the father of John Connor. The only way to accept that fact is, in the original timeline the John Connor who first grew up to be the leader of the Resistance should have a different father. And John Connor born from Kyle Reese grows up to a different John Connor who is well aware of Skynet and the Resistance while growing up. If we go with the theory that Kyle Reese was always the father, it's the "who came first, the chicken or egg?" situation.

See. That's where you're just wrong.

"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a nonlinear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff." - Ten

It would be interesting to see a version where Connor realizes that sending Reese leads to Skynet's creation (as well as his own) and chooses to stop Reese from going.

What were the limitations on the time machine?
Wouldn't it be wiser to continually attempt a known point of contact to try and kill Connor in the past? Instead of going at different times? They could have just insured a nuke landed where Sarah Connor was...

Maybe the original timeline with Kyle could have had him exist in the present, but the appearance of a Terminator somehow pulls him into the future..where he learns he must go back in time to save Sarah...but for some reason he lost all his memories of previously existing in that time...a side effect of traveling forward in time? I dunno..

Maybe Kyle worked at Skynet...experimenting with temporal energy that pulls him into the future by accident (before he met Sarah)...and he loses his memory and assumes he always existed in the future...

crabra comander said:

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What were the limitations on the time machine?
Wouldn't it be wiser to continually attempt a known point of contact to try and kill Connor in the past? Instead of going at different times? They could have just insured a nuke landed where Sarah Connor was...

If they kept sending them to the same point of contact, it would completely change their behavior in what/where they would go.

After T2, I believe that Sarah had John moved around a lot and kept a low profile, so there was no data in where they would have been.

DuneMuadDib said:

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Without knowing it's coming he wouldn't be prepared and likely would have lost if the greatest military minds couldn't have won either. Further he'd be a completely different person because of the different father, so he wouldn't be the John Connor needed to lead the Resistance anyway.

Interesting. I didn't realize that it was always implied that he knowing the future is what made him the leader to win the war against the machines. I know that was hinted at in the sequels, but wasn't sure it was so in the first movie's future. That makes sense as to why Kyle being the father is really vital for John and the war.

Kerr Avon said:

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"People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but actually, from a nonlinear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff." - Ten

Ha..well then the Doctor is correct .

hankey01 said:

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Maybe the original timeline with Kyle could have had him exist in the present, but the appearance of a Terminator somehow pulls him into the future..where he learns he must go back in time to save Sarah...but for some reason he lost all his memories of previously existing in that time...a side effect of traveling forward in time? I dunno..

Maybe Kyle worked at Skynet...experimenting with temporal energy that pulls him into the future by accident (before he met Sarah)...and he loses his memory and assumes he always existed in the future...

Nice, that's a good twist to having Kyle being from the present.

Your hypothesis kinda reminded me of the episodes from Sarah Connor Chronicles. I miss that show, took its time to put things in gear, but really expanded the universe in a unique way. But it had quite the massive cliffhanger series finale.

hankey01 said:

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Maybe the original timeline with Kyle could have had him exist in the present, but the appearance of a Terminator somehow pulls him into the future..where he learns he must go back in time to save Sarah...but for some reason he lost all his memories of previously existing in that time...a side effect of traveling forward in time? I dunno..

Maybe Kyle worked at Skynet...experimenting with temporal energy that pulls him into the future by accident (before he met Sarah)...and he loses his memory and assumes he always existed in the future...

What if Kyle was sent back in time as an agent for the "Machines" to help setup something that would be beneficial to the machines. However, after arriving he aborts his mission, meets up with Sarah, and gives her the down-low on what happens. They have a child together, he gets killed by the machines after tracking him down since he aborted his mission. Sarah prepares John for what is about to happen, and he becomes very beneficial to helping destroy the "Machines"