Firefly & Serenity - Sequence and General Chat

There's this 'thing' that Whedon does in all his stuff (not counting Avengers) that pisses most fans off. He didn't get a chance to do this 'thing' in Firefly, so he did it in Serenity

This 'thing' is what Solo refers to as 'Bad Whedon'.

It is also why Firefly pretty much has to be viewed before Serenity, or it will kinda ruin the series for you.

As other's have noted, the tone of the movie is very different. Whedon was under pressure to produce something that succeded where Firefly failed, so he sci-fied it up, and pretty much eliminated the space western take of the series.

Conversely, Whedon claims that Fox made him tone down Mal's character in the show, 'cos he was too much off a bitter a-hole. Supposedly the 'darker' Mal we see in the movie is how he was meant to be in the show.

Imo, Serenity is a good movie, but not a good Firefly movie...

Riceball said:

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Agree, the movie is really more of a love letter to all of the fans of the show more than anything else and was, in part, a means of giving the show some closure. You'll definitely appreciate it better after having had seen the series and I think you'd understand where everyone is coming from in the movie better too.

If that is a love letter I never want one from him.

Solo4114 said:

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I think it's because fans waited for ages for the movie to come out after the series was canceled, and so they watched their DVDs over and over.

Personally...I say see the series first....and that's it. The movie is...good, but it has its problems. I'll just say it has a LOT of Joss Whedon in it, both the good and the bad, and Joss Whedon's bad side is something that doesn't sit well with me. His good stuff I love. His bad stuff...I don't.


I know this will be an unpopular viewpoint, but I'd say that the series has a very different tone to it as compared to the movie. And while the movie provides closure, it left plenty still open to question. I was unsatisfied, indeed disappointed by the movie, largely because of the last, oh, 20 min or so. Your mileage may vary.

Exactly and then some. Summed it up perfect.

Honestly the best thing to do would be to watch only the series and skip the movie. I could never do that but it would be best.

I think if we debate too much more on this topic, the thread will stop being spoiler-free...

But IMO Whedon only irritates SOME of his fans with this. Definitely not most.

Alan Castillo said:

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No worries there. I watch everything in the evenings with the Mrs.

Sometimes we can't stop blabbering and commenting on what's going on though

My wife loves it and she has no interest in our little universe here.

booksandcorsets said:

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I think if we debate too much more on this topic, the thread will stop being spoiler-free...

But IMO Whedon only irritates SOME of his fans with this. Definitely not most.

I've rareley seen any in-depth analysis of his work where the subject doesn't come up, and invariably the conclusion is an over-realiance on that trope, to the point of predictability.

When watching his work as a whole, I honestly think only hardcore whedon fanboys have not tired of it. But you're right, topic for a different discussion.

jameth1971 said:

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My wife loves it and she has no interest in our little universe here.

My wife loves all the movies and series I like, and also has no interest in here.

A couple of days ago she came home all excited and told me 'Do you know that they sell EVERYTHING they use on movies ! I mean decorations, furniture, and all that !??' (she looked up an Elizabeth Weir necklace from SG Atlantis out of curiosity on the net and came across the Legends sales archives).

Then I showed her my SG-1 display 'Not only do they sell everything dear, they even chop them up and idiots like me buy them'

Cross my heart, true story

I saw the film first, and it's what made me go and watch the TV show. I LOVE the film. Good thought provoking science fiction, with a few solid action scenes, is so rare now days I could not help but love the movie.

Then I watched the show on DVD and fell so in love with it that I watch the series then movie regularly every few months, and my wife now loves them too and will ask me when I'm due for another viewing.

It's my go to view if I'm sick in bed too. The "thing" that Solo hates, I love it. I love the darker side of Mal. I think the tension and desperate edge to Serenity is well done. The larger over arcing story in the film is incredible and satisfying. Great space battle. Great shootouts and a few excellent hand to hand combat scenes.

The series though, all about character and humor. It lets you dig in and feel like you're living on Serenity with the crew. The action in the series is generally small scale low budget stuff, but it is still well done. All of the episodes work, and are well written. But the show has 5 episodes that for me is some of the best TV ever written. It's just SO GOOD.

So, for me, the series and the film go hand in hand. Can't have one without the other, and I would not want to. The "western" edge of he show is there in the film. Whedon was not under any pressure from Fox when he made the film. He made the film with Universal and they let him do whatever he wanted. Fox had nothing to do with the film.

All that said. I do agree, watch the series first.

So, for me, the series and the film go hand in hand. Can't have one without the other, and I would not want to. The "western" edge of he show is there in the film. Whedon was not under any pressure from Fox when he made the film. He made the film with Universal and they let him do whatever he wanted. Fox had nothing to do with the film.

Whedon has stated himself (read the Serenity movie book thingy) that he had tremedous difficulty penning the script of the movie so as to stay true to the show, but introduce a wider commercial appeal/action setpiece element to draw in casual viewers unaware of the show.

He may not have been under pressure from Universal, but he applied it to himself.

booksandcorsets said:

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Series, in the order it is on the DVDs.

The movie comes last chronologically and you'll appreciate it more.

This. Most definitely this.

Jayne hats for the whole family. that is what my wife was inspired to do after seeing firefly. and while we love the series, the movie left a sour taste in the mouth. Its great on its own, but there´s the whedon-thing that I personally do not need, since IMO it does have great impact, but not necessarily helps the story along. and everything that is just done for the sheer heck of it is superfluous.

Alan Castillo said:

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Don't worry about that. I have just quickly learnt to teach my eyes to skim past what is surely a spoiler Besides, I have no idea what it's all about anyway, so nothing is 'sticking in'

So long as there's no 'Morena Baccarin dies you know', it's cool

No she does not die but her full nudity was a surprise in this film. A happy one though.

Yeah right.

You're thinking of "Death in Love".

Birdie said:

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I've rareley seen any in-depth analysis of his work where the subject doesn't come up, and invariably the conclusion is an over-realiance on that trope, to the point of predictability.

Apparently, this particular usage was supposed to happen in a future episode of the show. The talent in question was told of it. Least, I vaguely remember reading something along those lines.

Birdie said:

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I've rareley seen any in-depth analysis of his work where the subject doesn't come up, and invariably the conclusion is an over-realiance on that trope, to the point of predictability.

When watching his work as a whole, I honestly think only hardcore whedon fanboys have not tired of it. But you're right, topic for a different discussion.

Yes, to be clear, my complaint is that he's gotten into a rut. It's like his "thing." Once you're familiar with the larger body of his work, especially if you watched several of his TV series the whole way through, you grow to expect it, and it's more surprising if he DOESN'T use the trope....which, of course, never happens, unless the show gets canceled abruptly...

That's not to say that -- at least on TV -- he doesn't often pay off his use of this particular trope (and some others), but it's become old hat to me.

The real problem I have with its use in the film is that he never DOES get the chance to "pay it off" down the road, so it ends up being a thing he does in the moment, which, in my opinion, lessens the artistic impact of it. Like telling a multi-layered joke where you only get to the FIRST punchline.

Goodwolf said:

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Apparently, this particular usage was supposed to happen in a future episode of the show. The talent in question was told of it. Least, I vaguely remember reading something along those lines.

Yeah, the scuttlebutt is that the film is a heavily adapted and compressed version of what the highlights of the second season would have been. And you can see that in the film, again, if you know Whedon's work. It makes sense and you can spot the beats and guess roughly where they'd have fallen in the season.

But anyway, make your own call. Personally, I advise not seeing the film. I know others disagree, and my suggestion will likely fall on deaf ears, but I'd just avoid it.

Look at it this way. You can never UNsee it once you do. Think about any other franchise you've watched where a further entry into the franchise didn't ruin but at least weakened the experience as a whole for you. That is, in my opinion, the POTENTIAL downside to watching the film.



Actually, here's what I'd recommend, and what would probably work for me, were I able to turn back the clock.


1.) Watch the series.

2.) Say "Ok, what the hell happens in the film. IGOTTAKNOW." Then read the spoilers.

3.) At that point, you MAY be able to do the mental gymnastics necessary to cordon off your experience of watching the film from the rest of the series. Like, you'll know what's coming, so you can say "Well, yeah, but in MY version of the show, that never happens."

I don't know about anyone else, but I find that knowing in advance what will likely disappoint me makes the impact less profound -- and thus less disappointing. Again, though, I have to say that this is disappointment in a story choice, and in one aspect of the execution of that choice (for me, anyway).

It'd be like saying "Well, yeah, but just wait. Anakin goes bad at the end of the third movie. And he does it mostly because he has separation issues, not because he wants to rule the galaxy as a tyrant. Seriously. Separation issues, dude. Oh, and Padme dies. Technically he kills her, but in kind of a lame way." If you knew that in advance, maybe the impact of it wouldn't be as disappointing. Know what I mean?

Noeland said:

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You're thinking of "Death in Love".

Seriously???????

Time to head over to Netflix

Solo4114 said:

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2.) Say "Ok, what the hell happens in the film. IGOTTAKNOW." Then read the spoilers.

I wouldn't do this. I'd recommend you just watch the movie, spoiler-free. Try very hard to be spoiler-free. It has a different flavor than the series, yes, but it is still the Firefly world and universe and things HAPPEN.

Pay no attention to the spoilers. Watch the series first, then the movie. Don't forget the popcorn !

Watch the series definitely, maybe watch the movie afterwards.
I agree with the basic points put forward by Solo4114.

I'm glad I started this thread !

My bottom line from all I have read is : I will watch the series first. Then, 'forget' I watched it, and am prepared to see the movie thereafter as a 'separate entity' in its own right. The ties to the series I will take as being cherries on the cake. I should enjoy it all much more that way

Alan Castillo said:

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Was the producing studio different?

In a word, yes. Firefly was produced by Mutant Enemy and 20th Century Fox Television; Serenity was produced by Universal Pictures and Barry Mendel Productions.

Regarding your last comment above, I wouldn't "forget" the series. The movie has a different "feel" to it when compared to the television series, but it is most definitely a continuation of what occurred on the series. The exact reasons for the different vibe will likely never be known, but I think it's simply because three years had passed between the series and the movie. Think of it this way--go to work at a job for 14 weeks, then take a three-year break, doing other jobs in the interim, and go back to that previous job. Do you think you would do that job exactly as you had before? Probably not.

The television series was one of those rare "perfect storm" moments--all of the elements coming together at exactly the right time. It's nearly impossible to duplicate something like that, even if the same people are involved. For me the movie wasn't quite as good as the series, but the differences are marginal.

That said, watch the series, then watch the movie. Ignore the naysayers; decide for yourself whether or not you like them.

Zombie_61 said:

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Regarding your last comment above, I wouldn't "forget" the series. The movie has a different "feel" to it when compared to the television series, but it is most definitely a continuation of what occurred on the series. The exact reasons for the different vibe will likely never be known,

Well, it is hard to 'unsee' something in reality. Perhaps I should have worded it better and said that I will not have high expectations from the movie ..... so that I will be very pleasantly surprised when I watch it

I don't know anyone who has seen firefly and not liked it to death.