Day / Night of the Doctor – I’m Confused Possible Spoilers

Asp9mm said:

Let's face it. Moffat has just caused confusion and even anger just because his his huge ego wanted to address the regeneration problem during his reign. Whether we like it or not, things are now messed up and what we thought and referred to as Nine, Ten and Eleven for all these years has just been changed. Imagine if he had thrown the 'missing' Doctor between Three and Four, then there really would have been uproar. But we have to accept, however we look at it now, Hurt was Nine and everyone has been bumped up a slot from that point on

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:thumbsup

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I Said said:

I see it as it was played out in the show....Eccelsons Doctor had mentioned to Rose he was Doctor 9......Tennent 10 & Smith has said he's 11 even though he was aware of Hurt's & Tennant's extra regenerations....so Capaldi should be 12.....McGann's Doctor should have regenerated to Eccelson's...but the Sisters intervened.....forcing his regeneration into the Warrior.
You can see in the mini episode that they used a younger archive image of Hurt, so it would be safe to say that Hurt's Warrior spent quite a long time fighting in the Time War....he ages very slowly.
In the 50th show he was still the Warrior,.....really only at the end of his life did he behave like the Doctor (all 13 mentioned),....thus forcing him to regenerate into the 9th Doctor,....he did use up an extra regeneration though to accommodate the Warrior


So really I think Capaldi is the 12th Doctor but is on his 14th regeneration......Hurt briefly behaved like the Doctor, but that was in his reincarnation as the Warrior


What will really balls things up is if Moffat scrips Capaldi telling everyone he's the 14th Doctor


J

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Asp9mm said:

Let's face it. Moffat has just caused confusion and even anger just because his his huge ego wanted to address the regeneration problem during his reign. Whether we like it or not, things are now messed up and what we thought and referred to as Nine, Ten and Eleven for all these years has just been changed. Imagine if he had thrown the 'missing' Doctor between Three and Four, then there really would have been uproar. But we have to accept, however we look at it now, Hurt was Nine and everyone has been bumped up a slot from that point on

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Oh really,.......... well currently the BBC is calling Capaldi Dr 12

BBC One - Doctor Who

J

War Doctor != The Doctor. So he doesn't count as a numerical Doctor, at least what I have seen from the BBC thus far.

Jaitea said:

Oh really,.......... well currently the BBC is calling Capaldi Dr 12
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1151/wii7.jpg
BBC One - Doctor Who

J

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Of course they are. If they start calling him the 13th doctor then we'll have to start calling Nine - Ten, Ten - Eleven and Eleven - Twelve etc. And that will really add confusion. We'll all call him Twelve, but that doesn't change the fact that another one has been slotted in. Moffat's view is firm that Capaldi is Thirteen, and it's because of him making up these storylines and changing things about that we have this debate now.

What number Doctor is Matt Smith? What number Doctor is Peter Capaldi? How does it all work?

http://metro.co.uk/2013/11/24/docto...-doctor-regeneration-problem-sort-of-4199592/

Even Matt Smith is at it.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/doctor-who-christmas-spoilers-matt-2847509

Asp9mm said:

Of course they are. If they start calling him the 13th doctor then we'll have to start calling Nine - Ten, Ten - Eleven and Eleven - Twelve etc. And that will really add confusion. We'll all call him Twelve, but that doesn't change the fact that another one has been slotted in. Moffat's view is firm that Capaldi is Thirteen, and it's because of him making up these storylines and changing things about that we have this debate now.

What number Doctor is Matt Smith? What number Doctor is Peter Capaldi? How does it all work?

Doctor Who: Steven Moffat clears up the whole Doctor regeneration problem? sort of | Metro News

Even Matt Smith is at it.


Doctor Who Christmas spoilers: Matt Smith is final, Thirteenth Doctor, Steven Moffat reveals - Mirror Online

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........yeah that's which I was saying
J

Capaldi is Doctor 12. Only twelve incarnations called themselves The Doctor. He is incarnation 13, but he is Doctor 12. The War Doctor did not consider himself a Doctor until the end, then forgot all about it, so he doesn't affect the numbering of the Doctors, just the number of incarnations.

DoctorEight said:

Capaldi is Doctor 12. Only twelve incarnations called themselves The Doctor. He is incarnation 13, but he is Doctor 12. The War Doctor did not consider himself a Doctor until the end, then forgot all about it, so he doesn't affect the numbering of the Doctors, just the number of incarnations.

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That would be acceptable if it wasn't for everyone else calling him The Doctor throughout the entire episode. It's one of those cases like the half human thing where we just have to bury our head in the sand and pretend it didn't happen. I'm going to go one step further though by acknowledging that Hurt was The Doctor, but that Matt Smith's regeneration never happened. Perfect I'm so glad he's gone

Asp9mm said:

That would be acceptable if it wasn't for everyone else calling him The Doctor throughout the entire episode. It's one of those cases like the half human thing where we just have to bury our head in the sand and pretend it didn't happen. I'm going to go one step further though by acknowledging that Hurt was The Doctor, but that Matt Smith's regeneration never happened. Perfect I'm so glad he's gone

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:lol

I think Smith was a great Doctor. The writing? Not so much. But he was good in the role I thought.

Hurt being called the Doctor throughout the entire episode is a big part of why I call Capaldi 13 although as DoctorEight says the official numbering is 12. Fact is though that even before Hurt's realization that he doesn't do the dasterdly deed he refers to himself as the Doctor multiple times both directly and through implication. Furthermore, while Hurt may forget, the CURRENT Doctor knows that the War Doctor was indeed The Doctor (and says so late in the 50th) so for him personally it's like acknowledging a long lost sibling. "I had three brothers, yes, but that's because I didn't talk about my fourth brother. he's back though so I have four brothers now".

So ya, Capaldi is the 13th Doctor but official numbering so far as the show goes is 12.

Asp9mm said:

That would be acceptable if it wasn't for everyone else calling him The Doctor throughout the entire episode. It's one of those cases like the half human thing where we just have to bury our head in the sand and pretend it didn't happen. I'm going to go one step further though by acknowledging that Hurt was The Doctor, but that Matt Smith's regeneration never happened. Perfect I'm so glad he's gone

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While true, I think it was 'for lack of a better word'. Plus, they also called him Gramps and Grandad (Even in Time of the Doctor).

Regardless, I am taking Neil Gaiman's advice on the matter:

Neil Gaiman said:

I don’t really understand the question. I’m tempted to say something like, “No, the John Hurt War Doctor is just something that happened in THE NAME OF THE DOCTOR, THE NIGHT OF THE DOCTOR and THE DAY OF THE DOCTOR on television.”

If it happens on the TV, it’s canonical, unless it isn’t. (For example, no-one seems entirely sure whether we get to see pre-Hartnell regenerations during the mindbending battles of Brain of Morbius.)

We now know there was a regeneration between the Paul McGann Eighth Doctor and the Chris Ecclestone Ninth Doctor, one whom the Doctor himself has only just begun to regard as being The Doctor (as opposed to being something else).

If you mean, “Do we now all have to agree to renumber all the Doctors?”, I think the main purpose of numbering things is to communicate, and we all know who we mean when we say Doctors NIne, Ten or Eleven. If anyone corrects you and says “You mean TWELFTH!” when you say “Matt Smith was the eleventh Doctor” then that person is being irritatingly pedantic and should be pitied, in a nice way and with a gentle friendly, not-patronising sort of love, because they will have long hard lives ahead of them.

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Since he writes for the show, I'm gonna agree with him.

Sounds good to me. Although I've tried, and since I can't get hold of one of those memory wiping worm things, I'll just have to accept that series 5 -7 happened, so Smith is always going to be #11.

OH NO! You seem to have been run over by a carriage!

Hmm... I wonder what name he did go by when he was in his 'Hurt' incarnation?

Far more interesting, there is a Doctor we have never seen, 'The Aborted Doctor', Who's life the Tennant Dr 'Stole'. Unless of course from this action, somehow The Valeyard was created...

I think I can clear most of this up, having recently watched Night/Day/Time of the Doctor.

The numbering and titles of the Doctor still are the same. McGann is 8, Eccelston is 9, Tennant is 10, Smith is 11, and Capaldi is 12. Hurt is the War Doctor, and is also the Doctor, but he doesn't "count" for purposes of numeration. I have two possible explanations why.

1. Remember that during the sequence when Gallifrey is hidden by all THIRTEEN Doctors, we're referring to the 12 Doctors and the War Doctor. The War Doctor states in the Name of the Doctor that what he did was in the name of peace and sanity, and 11 replies "but not in the name of the Doctor." In the 50th Anniv. special, they give him the "honorary" title of Doctor. BUT, the War Doctor and 10 both realize they won't remember their decision to save/hide Gallifrey. I don't recall if 11 realizes he won't remember, either, but if he doesn't....there's your reasoning. Nobody remembers that Gallifrey is hidden until Day of the Doctor. Instead, they remember it was destroyed, and thus the War Doctor is a pariah and is not considered a "true" Doctor. He's a warrior, not a healer. So, in the end, the numeration is down to forgetfullness. Nobody remembers the 9th iteration AS the Doctor, so nobody remembers that 10 is 11, 11 is 12, etc.

2. Everyone BUT 11 forgot the War Doctor's decision to save Gallifrey. To help maintain Gallifrey's cover story (namely, that it was blown up), 11 refers to himself as 11, and 12 refers to himself as 12. But this is all to maintain the fiction that Gallifrey was destroyed.


It's a bit inartful, I grant you, but I found the specials and the explanation on the regenerations to be...plausible if somewhat convoluted. What I find sloppier is how things that are clearly established in Moffat's reign, end up being overwritten casually also in Moffat's reign. E.G., the Doctor erases himself from all data everywhere...but somehow Cybermen remember him in a later episode? Then the Daleks forget who he is, but later remember him, and so on and so forth. It's all just a bit slapdash, really.

Well, everyone on Gallifrey seemed to be calling him 'The Doctor', not 'War Doctor', or 'The guy who was The Doctor, but now is not, but the guy that only River Song knows his real name, but it's really still him, but not.'

When the line up happened the counsel even said "All 12 of them" including Hurt. Then Capaldi eyed us and said "You mean all 13!"

So here is how it went down. Moffat wanted to get the whole 'regeneration limit' out of the way now, rather than wait another turn. So he said that there was a mystery Doctor that no one ever knew about and the Tennant 2 for 1 Doctor.

I would have much rather liked to see Eccleston or McGann fighting for Gallifrey than Hurt. (Not that Hurt wasn't brilliant in the role!)

I got that 11/13 Does remember the events as they happened in his current time stream, where 9 and (10 or 11/12) [It's all very timey whimey] won't remember as they were outside their time stream.

Moffat probably did that so that we would spend the next year talking about it and not complaining about the fact that he split series 7 over two years, gave us 2 specials instead of series 8 and is going to make us wait 9 or 10 months before we get any more Who on TV.

So instead of 2014 being series 10 of new Who episodes, it will be series 8. (Counting as a series a year from 2005) - (Yes, the 'specials' year between series 4 and 5 was another year of episodes lost)

I really would have liked another year with Matt that Moffat took from us by his series 7 and 50th shenanigans.

Just to point out, Capaldi didnt say ' All 13 Sir'. I thought he did, but not according to the BBC subtiles online or on the DVD, its credited to the back actor playing the timelord.

I thought it was clear it was the guy in the room saying it. I also hope we get to see the moment in a future episode where Capaldi's Doctor joins in on that moment as part of the story line of finding Gallifrey. That could make for a cool episode.

As Moffat has said, The Doctor doesn't generally refer to himself by number, so I think it's mostly trivial in universe aside from a few instances, so I think they wanted to give the fans an "out" to retain the current numbering.
Either way, up until now the numbering has been correct, as he has not considered The War Doctor a "doctor" until the events of The Day of the Doctor (and I've also been wondering what the heck he called himself for the possibly hundreds of years he fought in the time war). The question is whether from now on he retroactively considers the War Doctor as a numbered Doctor given that he now knows he didn't destroy his whole race. I thought the general message from the BBC is that the numbering remains the same, but they've simply added in the War Doctor inbetween 8/9. The current numbering is too ingrained in the fanbase for them to go and change it now.
I'll personally continue to consider Matt Smith the 11th Doctor unless the Doctor states otherwise.

BlobVanDam said:

I thought it was clear it was the guy in the room saying it. I also hope we get to see the moment in a future episode where Capaldi's Doctor joins in on that moment as part of the story line of finding Gallifrey. That could make for a cool episode.

As Moffat has said, The Doctor doesn't generally refer to himself by number, so I think it's mostly trivial in universe aside from a few instances, so I think they wanted to give the fans an "out" to retain the current numbering.
Either way, up until now the numbering has been correct, as he has not considered The War Doctor a "doctor" until the events of The Day of the Doctor (and I've also been wondering what the heck he called himself for the possibly hundreds of years he fought in the time war). The question is whether from now on he retroactively considers the War Doctor as a numbered Doctor given that he now knows he didn't destroy his whole race. I thought the general message from the BBC is that the numbering remains the same, but they've simply added in the War Doctor inbetween 8/9. The current numbering is too ingrained in the fanbase for them to go and change it now.
I'll personally continue to consider Matt Smith the 11th Doctor unless the Doctor states otherwise.

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I think the memory issues explain the "War Doctor" vs. "real Doctor" thing. Only Doctors after Matt Smith will remember that the War Doctor "counted," and then more in an "honorary" capacity.

I think that you can also think of the "War Doctor" as being sort of like the Valeyard: an incarnation between incarnations.


In the end, I'm not sure it really matters outside of fan nomenclature. Much of this was more pressing when "13 regenerations" was the hard number around which they had to get. Now they've gotten around it -- in a suitable fashion, I think, since the Time Lords have already been shown as able to grant additional regenerations -- so I don't really see where the numbering counts all that much.

Solo4114 said:

In the end, I'm not sure it really matters outside of fan nomenclature. Much of this was more pressing when "13 regenerations" was the hard number around which they had to get. Now they've gotten around it -- in a suitable fashion, I think, since the Time Lords have already been shown as able to grant additional regenerations -- so I don't really see where the numbering counts all that much.

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Shame on you, that is just such a sensible idea :rolleyes :facepalm



:lol

Solo4114 said:

In the end, I'm not sure it really matters outside of fan nomenclature.

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It doesn't. BUT I'M RIGHT *** ******!!!! :lol

Well, what I am most confused over is how old The Doctor really is. Hurt was young, and in how many years, grew old? So old that his body was 'wearing a bit thin' and he regenerated.

Now, when locked up in the dungeon, he states that he was 800 years old. Tenant was 904 at the time. And Smith was 1200. Tennant said....400 years, that's all it takes to forget? Some thing like that.

So that means that the Hurt Doctor grew old and too 'thin' that he regenerated in just 100 years, yet one episode later, we see Smith, who already went from 907 years old to 1200 in his timestream, now age an additional 500 years?

Not to mention that the 7th Doctor was 950 years old a long time ago......