Well, you're not exactly talking apples and oranges, there. Star Trek has always been about the human condition; so much so that the tagline of the first flick is "The Human (emphasis mine) Adventure is Just Beginning."
(Silver Age) Green Lantern has always been about alien space cops with magic rings patrolling the galaxy, and the adventures of our guy in the firmament. You're trying to compare ET with Farscape.
Spock is half Vulcan.Jeyl said:
Nero and crew? Romulan.
Sarek? Full Vulcan.
Keenser? Non-human.
Gaila? Green alien chick.
Spock's bullies? Vulcan.
All characters... some may have been background or supporting characters, but they were characters and all had lines.
I just want people to ask..wait a minute, why did they build these starships again?
I seem to recall a mission statement once upon a time. Right there at the beginning of the show. Yep.
In the jj verse they were built to fight Nero... not explore... fight him with lens flare and ipods.
...I think they make beer too.
Well, that's not something I personally look forward to in Star Trek because when we're dealing in a universe with so many different races, societies, cultures and god-like beings, saying it's about the "human condition" comes off more like "We are the dominant factor" rather than "We are a part of something".Larry Young said:
That's why I like Deep Space Nine so much. It doesn't brag about how it's our journey since at it's core, it was about the Bajorans and the Cardassians. It didn't bathe in Gene Roddenberry's flawed idealistic views of humanity being perfect (Picard "even when we wore costumes like that we'd already started to make rapid progress"). Heck, a lot of really great episodes don't even involve the human characters, and most of the important development moments all go to the alien characters.
It's not really a progressive franchise if all you want to pay attention to are the human characters, or just the human factors of the alien characters. While you stand by the quote "The human adventure is just beginning", I stand by "To boldly go where no one has gone before", because when aliens are involved, it's as much their journey as it is ours.
And it's amazing how human they look to outside of the pointy ears/eye brows and the different colored skin. You'd swear they were human already! In fact, during the commentary track for Trek09, one of the commentators even praises JJ for having the Romulans speak only in english, declaring that decision to be "brilliant". It's not like they just made Uhura's bridge promotion entirely pointless since she understands the Romulan language. But hey, more human looking/sounding aliens all the way!JD said:
And I do love how one of Spock's defining moments of character development is him willing to let a group of helpless Romulans just die. Small wonder why we'll be seeing him tossing grenades at his foes and mind melding them to attack their own kind in the newest Star Trek game.
Humans are overrated. And so is Earth.
I'm sorry. Some people like anchovies on their pizza, so there's that.Jeyl said:
I think you're missing the point. Star Trek is not about aliens, technobabble or action. It's about exploring the human condition through story telling. Yes, it does depict an optimistic view of the future, but the stories are about exploring our own humanity. The tales of aliens are vehicles to explore the human race. They’re tales about lessons and morality.
Each show has always had an outsider that is put there to question human behavior or point out the odd the things that we do. Spock, Data, Odo, Seven of Nine… they were all learning about humanity and start off looking down on it, only to later embrace their own.
Even the stories that are about aliens, are really about human beings. We just use the alien characters to tell a very human story. If you can’t see the very human psychology and feelings of characters like Spock or Kira, you must not be looking hard enough.
When Kirk says to Spock “everybody’s human,” he’s not just throwing words out there. He’s referring to having feelings, making mistakes, having pride… a psychological make-up.
Aliens such as the Cheronians, the J’naii, the Bajorans, the Vulcans… these races represent different aspects of humanity. They make us look at our own species.
Star Trek does two things very well (pre-Abrams)- it gives us something to aspire to and look forward to. It teaches us about ourselves… the world we live in today, and our race.
And some don't. It's all just opinions.Larry Young said:
That's where I'm a little bit different. I just see this as good story telling. Sure, I can relate to characters and their struggles, but the most crucial element I get from the character's performances is that they are developing for their own sake, not ours.darthgordon said:
And to be quite honest, saying that it's a human story is pretty much the same thing as saying "it's got a good story". Any character who has an emotion or a conflict they must overcome can be labeled as a "human story" no matter if it's about a human or an alien.
I'm not saying that I don't take away something from these performances. I do. I just credit it for good writing and acting and not just the franchise's attempt to try and make me look into my own species.
Oh, believe me, I'm well-aware. My comic book company targets women and other non-traditional fans in our storytelling.Jeyl said:
So you want the cake and you want to eat it too?Jeyl said:
You say there were no aliens - yet there were. Now, it's some of the aliens looked too human.
sigh.
(I'm not sure what the rant about Romulan's speak English has to do with aliens and such... but, from what I recall of TOS, TNG and the like the Romulans and other races were pretty good at English - so it appears it's a common language since Earth became a warp-able society - and apparently English it's most common tongue).
She is. Earth is 0.0 on the galactic chart. If that doesn't tell you what the Federation thinks, nothing will.darthgordon said:
JD said:
The Universal Translator was pretty good at English.
Just you know... throwing that out there.
Kevin
That's cool, but you're crying that you got chocolate cake at your friend's wedding rather than the vanilla you wanted.Jeyl said:
Who cares?Jeyl said:
Of course you know the actual quote is WHERE NO *MAN* HAS GONE BEFORE so ha ha wimmens aliens and whatnot us whitey menfolks don't care what you think don't matter ha ha goodbye we're going to go resume taking over everything there there that's a good girl.Jeyl said:
Seriously, you're going to have to do better on that score.
Space, the final frontier: Frontier... Undiscovered, beyond the edge of human knowledge, and it is the last word in that and thus we are forced to challenge ourselves in that process.
These are the voyages: A long journey to far away places
Of the Starship Enterprise: not the voyages of Kirk or Spock or Picard. The voyages of the Enterprise, the story of a starship built for a reason. What did Kirk say? Risk. .that's WHY we're aboard her!
It's five year mission: Mission, an assignment to carry out a specific purpose that is exactly identified. Five years? Well tv series ran about that, but let's say that that means to come home again that this ship is built for a rough on their own five years and they are expected to return and bring with them all they learned.
To explore strange new worlds: Explore, to search for the purpose of discovery, and specifically whole new worlds beyond what we have known, and not just planets. What did Q say? No just mapping nebula, but charting the unknown possibilities of existance.
Seek out new life and new civilizations: To find others, life new to us, civilizations different from us to learn from, and some to join us in peace.
To boldy go where no man/one has gone before.
RISK! There it is again, these people may die in this endeavor. Because it is worth a life, it is worth the risk because the payoffs are so great. The ship, the mission, that is what matters the most and that is what is worth dying for if necessary. It's a greater then the self thing. Not a forced decision to risk life to fight wars of self preservation for instance.
Rather they chose to risk life for the good of humanity by extending human presence and knowledge farther then anyone ever had done before.
Now all the traditional dramatic obstacles can and must get in the way of the above.
It's entertainment. I get it. I want it. Orion slave girls and all man.
Get people watching absolutely, it's an exciting place out there in the Trek verse, it's not a hard place to have action and excitement happen, and when they don't realize it, they just drank the Trek kool-ade....
Hey, maybe we have something in the future that is better, maybe it's important to explore and take risks in life for a greater purpose. Both as individuals and as a species.
Last edited by CessnaDriver; Jun 15, 2011 at 11:29 PM.
Someday you guys might realize the truth of it all.
GOOD ideas for Star Trek ran out somewhere in the second season. (with a few exceptions)
The rest is an attempt at recapturing lightning in a bottle.
Take what they make and try your best to enjoy it.
When broadcast, I never really liked DS9, VOY or ENT. But watching them in rapid succession and not having to wait 10 weeks between 4 new episodes, made it much more enjoyable.
Try it.
micdavis said:
I found echoes of those first two seasons in the other series.
Sometimes I just need an episode a season to know it's still Trek of some kind.
Earth isLarry Young said:
on the galactic chart? No wonder the Federation only has one ship parked in orbit at all times instead of having numerous ships scattered throughout the entire solar system. Shia LaBeouf playing a cowardly pansy has a better chance at defending Earth than the Federation.
And that's largely why i've wrote of being a ST fan. I have no confidence that a future ST series wouldn't devolve into one that revolves around internal conflicts and drama with external conflicts only being thrown in as ratings grabs and pointless space battle eye candy.micdavis said:
That being said, I think that there were a few good years in ST:TNG and DS9 I thought managed to be interesting in spite of that.
I also liked the Abrams movie. I thought it was very slick production wise and it was a good ensemble movie which brought ST a bit closer to risk taking and rule breaking. I think that was really the core of the success of ST.
However I think that in the past, something was essentially "broken" with the script writers. It lost it's objectiveness and instead placated fans with "a day in the life of" stories that involved too much character development and not enough plot. I think in line with that, the concept of the show had gotten just "too big". TOS mainly revolved around Kirk, Spock and McCoy as they'd wade their way trough an adventure. The latter shows had full bridge, engineering and medical crews full of extra characters that everntually would all have to have a moment that involved some sort of "feelings". I mean, really on the whole, they devolved into an improbable and impossible communist utopia where it was better not to rock the boat and instead spend too much time analyzing how you feel about things.
I'm just typing in the wind here so don't mind me. I'm bored at work.But you know what I'd like to see in a future series?
A return to a feeling that starships are essentially military ships.
A true ensemble cast, where each core crew member has their own duties, responsibilities, authority and is a person / character in their own rights rather than a bit player.
Stories that involve external conflict first, internal second for a majority of the time.
A de-emphasis on technology. Sure it's the future, but it's also ST's undoing. It's an antiutopia. Machines do all the work and people sit around with tea discussing feelings. They have everything yet nothing at the same time.
What if some of those feelings are bad? Not everyone is happy. How about some characters that are in conflict with other characters to varying degrees?
How about plots that don't involve aliens or huge mysteries? Surely it can't be that hard to take a cue from NCIS, Jag, Hardy Boys, Encyclopedia Brown..
and finally. Just stop being a soap opera in space. Stop being a mouth piece for social issues. Stop trying to make everything real.
Start being interesting again.
Take JJ Trek....
Remove the familiar Trek labels and impersonations of beloved characters, take away the Enterprise and give them a different looking ship.
What's particularly Trek about it at that point? Not much at all.
Take the film Master and Commander, up-tech it into the Trek 'verse, update with some women and diversity. Bang. Great Trek story.
Not only is this the core of Star Trek, it is the core of any good science fiction in general.metrosonus said:
Everything else is eye candy.
But to each his (or her) own. *shrugs*
Kevin
SSgt Burton, I agree with you. It's amazing how people can miss the point of a show, like the person I had to correct who wanted The Doctor (i.e. Who) to "kick ass".
SSgt Burton said:
it's one portion of a range of topics that sci fi covers. of course I agree that it is "the point of the show". Maybe I phrased it the wrong way out of sarcasm...
I'm not against any of that, hell, stick a guy with down syndrome on the show. Make it real, make it mean something. I get the point of it, but watching those shows when they deal with topics like that feels like im watching an after school special from 1986.
I dont feel genuinely interested with it as much as I do preached to.
I think you might be interested in reimagined Battlestar Galactica.
Seriously.
The tech is very "retro" for a sci-fi show, and it is completely devoid of aliens.
A little heavy on religion, but lots of space battles. Characters get mad at each other a lot. And instead of talking, they do a lot of punching. In fact one episode revolved around settling differences in a boxing ring.
Kevin
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