Auction house, Profiles in History, held the first of three entertainment auctions today. “The Dreier Collection Auction“ consisted of 396 lots which did very well hammering approximately* $2.4 million dollars without the buyers premium or bp included, and close to $3 million with the bp factored in.
I was told the auction room was very crowded with excited bidders. There were quite a few bids live on the bidding floor as well as internet and phone bidding.
Wow, amazing success. That stuff is way too rich for my blood, but one can enjoy looking and dreaming, though. Awesome stuff in that auction.
And that was only part 1!
Wow! Anyone here win anything?
Good for them. That family has been custodians of truly amazing pieces and thank god they treated these pieces like art.
I hope they make another $2.4!!!!
it was not a good investment they lost a ton of cash on the first sale if you compare what they paid and what the stuff resold at
items were very cool though!
What kind of price difference, approximate total, is there?planet said:
it was not a good investment they lost a ton of cash on the first sale if you compare what they paid and what the stuff resold at
items were very cool though!
How much did the Cylon go for?
$37,500.00Stormy320 said:
from what I have read around $608,155 (or -44%)theronstang said:
I guess when you buy it all from Profiles your not making a great investment seeing they get the highest prices for the stuff . So they resold and got hammered . The market has declined a lot on the items they invested in i guess
Yeah, the Dreiers bought at the wrong time and sold at the wrong time. Take a look at Jason Debord's apples-to-apples comparison of what they paid (through Profiles) and what they got back (through Profiles). Looks like, in the current market, the only people who come out ahead in the screenused prop game are the auction houses!
Profiles in History The Dreier Collection Movie Prop Auction
ouch! Yeah, definitely would be better to hang onto a collection and sell it when the market is on the upswing, even if you don't have a desire to hold onto something. Unless, of course, you get a good deal on something and will make a profit, even if it sells under the estimate: AKA something worth an estimate $1k, you bought it for $300, and sell for $600. Still a good profit!rkpetersen said:
Hey All,
Just for clarification, I only included a sampling of items for my "apples to apples" analysis, so I don't really have any idea on the overall profit/loss of the sale from the perspective of the consignor (though with the items in my analysis, it resulted in an overall net loss for those items, if my assumptions and analysis were accurate).
This is why I selected items and published my list of samples before the actual auction occurred, so that I couldn't pick and choose items that would skew the perceived outcome or result one way or another. I would love to see a more comprehensive analysis with more samples, but I only had some much time to go back and research pieces and compile information.
In any event though, it does provide the basis for a debate about the prospects of buying high end material from an auction house known for selling at the highest prices, and then reselling that same material through the same dealer.
I found it interesting, in that it offered a rare "apples to apples" opportunity to compare (similar to the Pugliese Collection sold years ago, though they went with an alternate auction house, Guernsey's, to resell the collection even though they purchased a lot of the material from Profiles in History).
The exercise was intended to be generally theoretical, in that the Seller Premiums and Buyer Premiums were speculative. But it does illustrate, in my opinion, that investing in original props, costumes, and other artifacts involves risk and a number of important variables to consider. Paramount, of course, are the costs to buy (Buyer's Premium) and sell (Seller's Premium) through an auction house.
One could also make the argument that Profiles is a good place to sell high end pieces (i.e. high prices are typically realized compared with competing auction houses and other dealers), but one of the least desirable places to buy high end pieces (for the same reason - high prices realized).
Jason DeBord
But it isn't apples to apples.
Bottom line....some of this was bought in an economy where the average house price round my way was $240,000 and now its $160,000. Plus with the Driers gone the apple cart was truly tipped.
It is apples to apples.
Benchmarks for the exact same items being resold through the exact same auction house. Time doesn't stand still, neither does the economy, so what you seem to be suggesting is that apples to apples comparisons are never possible. I would disagree.
As far as the economy goes, it is my personal opinion that there is in some ways a market "bubble" in the original prop and costume market, just as there was in the housing market (to take your example).
This is a market where it only takes two buyers on the same items to drive up prices beyond what anyone else believes is reasonable.
To further complicate things, given the Profiles in History terms published in their catalogs, we, as spectators, can't really know who bid on what anyway; or at least it isn't completely clear to me, given the following published policy...
Below is an excerpt from the Conditions of Sale from the auction catalog for The Dreier Collection:
5. Reserves. Lots may be subject to a reserve which is the
confidential minimum price below which the lot will not be sold. Although the
auctioneer may open the bidding on any lot below the reserve by placing
a bid on behalf of the seller, Profiles reserves the right to protect the reserve
by bidding through the auctioneer and continuing to bid on behalf of
the seller up to the reserve amount either through consecutive bids or by
placing bids in response to other bidders. Consignors may not bid on their
own lots or property. If the consignor is indebted to or has a monetary
guarantee from Profiles in certain circumstances, Profiles may have an
interest in an offered lot and the proceeds therefrom apart from Profiles’
commissions, and Profiles may bid thereon to protect such interest. In such
instance, Profiles is entitled to its standard commission rate when a lot is
“bought-in” to protect its interest.
Is there any distinction in the auction results published by Profiles in History with regards to those items that were bid on, but did not sell (i.e. meet the confidential reserve)?
Do "bought-in" items show up in results as "sold" items?
If so, wouldn't that portray a false image of market values, if people recognize something selling at a specific amount, when it may have actually gone unsold, as the confidential reserve was not met?
Obviously, information is power, and the auction house is in complete control of the key information regarding their sales, and it is to their commercial advantage to share only that information which presents them and their sales in the most positive light.
As a third party observer, given the above and all of the unknowns and ambiguity, I really never quite know what to make of these auctions, as the facts are limited in scope and details.
Jason
Wait.... am I reading that correctly? Profiles is allowed to bid on its own items to meet an unstated reserve?!?
Now, I don't want to jump to conclusions, but does that mean that theoretically a seller could come in with a dozen items and tell Profiles "I want a minimum of $1,000,000 for each item" and then Profiles would then have absolute free reign to bid against any legitimate bidder, driving the price as high as they believe the other bidder will go?
$ 37,500 for the Centurion eh?
Didn't Paul Allen, a few years back get Vulpa (dark gold cylon) for $ 18,000 or was it more?
I've seen that in the small print in quite a couple of auction places. So shady. They can keep the bidding going so they meet the reserve, but then again, if they don't meet the reserve, the item isn't sold, so either way the actual person bidding wouldn't get it unless they meet/pass the number.Art Andrews said:
Paul Allen got a lot more then that from Profiles .
Most of the items in the collection they would never make a profit on in any economy.
if you watched the show it seemed like these two people bought these items as pure
investments and really had no idea what they were doing .
Think thats fair to say seeing where and what they paid for them. I mean give any savvy reseller a few million
think you will see a much different result .
To buy and resell at that level you REALLY need to know your way around. The bummer is the season or show ended right before the drier auction
should it even be called bidding at that point or even an auction?theronstang said:
Maybe beat the Reserve ? lol
Regarding bidding and reserves and various auction houses and their policies in this regard, this is an interesting video shot by Mark (who posted above as tardis55; his related article on his Prop Stop website can be read HERE) from a Premiere Props live auction back in March:
Premiereprops auction - YouTube
Jason
I think a lot of false assumptions are being made based on false assumptions. The low estimate in the Profiles in History catalog is the reserve. The low reserve price listed is the price the item will sell for. The auctioneer can, at his discretion, start the bidding at a few increments below the low number listed in the catalog description to get momentum going on the item. If you are live at the auction, you can see this.
If you watch LiveAuctioneers or iCollector, the item starts at the low number listed in the catalog description.
James
Back in 2003, Vulpa sold for $27,500.00Borjis said:
Right but what he is saying is an auction house bidding against a interested buyer is like playing the house with a loaded deck . Not sure how anyone can argue that .KingJames said:
my head hurts.....
Jason it doesn't take two people. It takes one.
In the case of Profiles starting the bidding at $60K and someone bids and its sold. Thats the purpose of them finding bidders for certain items. We have all seen that done.
As for PP yes my video does show people basically bidding against themselves.
And that company in IL that you mentioned bidding people up on the sporting stuff did it too.
I don't think you are an observer though Jason. You have sold thru Profiles, bought (I think) thru profiles and now as is our right analyzing Profiles.
You and I know or highly suspect the game that is being played as much as anyone else which is why your asking for transparency. I respect it...and respect you for it. The call is kinda ringing on deaf ears though.
The biggest problem with Profiles is making the rest of the free market think these props are as overvalued as some people have come to regard them...but no seller would ever say that because as a seller we all want the best price.
Nuff said.
My head still hurts.
Oh...and I still think comparing prices, which is what your doing in a down economy is hard unless the upper echelon of prop collectors arent hurt by the economy which I think is what your saying. I'd ask them but most aren't on the board or never say anything anyway...lol.
Last edited by The Prop Stop; Jul 30, 2012 at 10:34 PM.
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