Well, let's first of all go through what I posted on TPD:
Simple answer is that if the dome is ROTJ how could it be a production ESB dome?
But let's have a more in depth answer based on comparisons I did when the Christie's helmet appeared. All images below referring to Christie's helmet or "Zine" refer to the same one in this PIH auction (they are the same helmet).
Teeth gaps are significantly wider on the PIH mask than an original ESB or an ESB promo mask (20th Century ESB):
The PIH casting is far too thick to be an original ESB:
The tooth depth on the PIH mask match those of the MOM ROTJ mask. So it is a ROTJ mask, not ESB.
If you were to look at the inside of an authentic NJ Farmer helmet, it has a white painted number, not a pink painted letter as in the PIH helmet. Furthermore, the pink painted letter is the same as a known tour helmet also in ownership at the time by Zine. There would be no reason to falsify an ID letter if it was an original helmet.
The mask in the auction has a mounting ring added that is not original, not production. It also has added undercut in the rear, and why is that? Because if it was something like a promo mask (just using the VP ANH as an example), there would be less undercut than an original ESB, so someone added undercut and the boundary of that undercut matches the boundary of the rear of a promo mask as seen in the 50% overlay. There is also absolutely no detail between the tusk tubes and that is indicative of a later casting, not from the production.
The PIH helmet itself (the dome), is ROTJ as clearly shown by the center ridge shape and merging of the center ridge with the widow's peak as seen below in comparisons of original ROTJ, ESB and the PIH (Christie's) helmet front widow's peak area:
Knowing what an authentic NJ Farmer mask looks like, we can see below in this comparison that the tusk tubes on the PIH mask are thinner at the convergence point like a later promo casting, and unlike the thicker tusk tube end seen on the original Paul Allen ESB stunt mask. Looking at the left side of the mouth triangle near the tusk tube, we see on the PIH mask curvature on the front edge, just like the later promo mask. Instead, that area shows up on both an original ESB stunt mask and an authentic ESB-based NJ Farmer mask as being straight. Then, also, if we look at the right side of the nose bridge on the PIH mask, it is thicker and straighter on its front and rear edges. In contast, on an original ESB stunt mask or an authentic NJ Farmer mask, or even on a later promo mask, the front edge has a pronounced curvature, the rear edge is straight and the entire nosebridge side is thinner. So this cannot be a Farmer mask from the time of ESB.
I could go on but you get the general idea. I would be even that upon measuring this mask, that it is nowhere near the size of an original ESB mask and that fact alone would discount the claim of its origin.
It looks nothing like an original ESB helmet. In fact, it is ROTJ. And it also has nothing in common with a known authentic helmet from NJ Farmer.
Now to address VaderVader's first post (welcome to the RPF by the way)
If you can discount with clear evidence what I've shown to be the case, then please by all means do. This is an open forum for discussion of authenticity of props.VaderVader
Join Date: Nov 2010
VaderVader has not been awarded enough reputation to matter.
Re: Profiles in History "Hollywood Auction" PDF now online
Lets keep 2012 with positive and logical discussions on Vader
can we not take the grief out in advance again.
You comment on things that you say stating your opinion as fact when its just your 2 year old opinion not ironclad proof.Just blurry screen grabs and comparing pics when one pic taken is shot in the distance which gives the perception that what you see is smaller and taking one close up and saying its fatter or bigger is not being correct or giving a proper example to compare with or being objective and then saying its murphys law is just wrong.
Have you seen ESB and ROTJ? Have you seen Darth Vader in those films? How then could you possible say that it is an ESB helmet when it is not? It doesn't take an expert to see that either. I have not seen the letter from Farmer, I am only going by what I see.It states the Darth Vader is what it is an Original production from the set of ESB ,if you read it, it comes with a letter from Nicholas J farmer himself which he confirms this is the original he got from Lucasfilm and some repairs he did to it.Not you or I have the right to say it isnt what it is.
When did Farmer give the owner the letter stating its provenance? When he got the suit? If so, then why would the owner need to go to so many people asking whether it is original or not? And that is right, the one from November 2010 had many things about it that were not typical of a Farmer suit, but that wasn't in contention since the auction was vague enough to only suggest the suit parts might be production, but clearly stated the helmet was production when it was not. This is the same helmet in the PIH auction, so the story hasn't changed. Two years won't change the fact that it is still a ROTJ helmet.Let all our viewers know that when a true farmer touring costume complete was being sold this past december at profiles you said it wasnt even a farmer touring one,which is the same one you saw in 2010 .You Said it wasnt that one that you thought it was from this owner when in fact you were wrong it was the same owner and you stated something that undermines your ability to qauntify what is what.
I am perfectly capable of writing something new, but it is simply about the same issue as before.Cut copying and pasteing and writing facts till your blue in the face doesnt make us intelligent but having the nuetrality and objectivity to search and see what if something is what it is and not be blind to be what all experts are is reasearching in a learning capacity and not a knocking one.
I haven't seen the documentation. So how could I be calling Farmer a liar. I am referring to the helmet and what is apparent in regard to its features that indicate it as being either ESB or not, or something else.when the touiring Vader in December was being sold you said that it wasnt the same consignor it was someone diffrent but you were wrong.
Also it came with documentation from farmer and you doubted it basically calling farmer a liar.
Shipping documentation from where? LFL? Of the suit? I haven't seen the documentation. Perhaps yes PIH has and that is enough for them. But it is obvious that there are problems with the helmet.So is another letter from Farmer himself and shipping documenattion from farmer isnt good enough for you will you stand up and call Farmer a liar.
The photos I show do not lie. What Mr. Farmer thinks is not relevant to what this issue is about this helmet and armor.From those who are close to farmer The fact is farmer doesnt trust you cause you twist what you like around to benefit your untruthful position that you are currently stating.
I consider that a personal threat. And please, let us all see what is on the record about me.Id be careful the road you are going down with all thats on the record with you.He doesnt want you bothering him as you have harrased him enough.He was vague cause he wanted you to leave him alone.
I have the emails with Farmer. Perhaps you would like to show where I harrassed him? If you do not have such evidence, that is libel.
Not only is your English and grammar poor, but unless you name names I have no idea what you are talking about. There was a helmet sourced at DP that belonged to BM. Otherwise I was always fully aware that there were two suits owned by the owner in question here, if it is the same one, and by your writing style I assume it is.So you cant tell touring apart from the one sold in december from another touring one that you looked at for another person ,you said it was his and you showed you cant tell what from what.
Then why don't you demonstrate where my analysis is wrong? I am happy to entertain that and would admit if I was.but when an item is being sold you stand on your podium making unfounded facts not taking the high road to research and see that the piece it what it is and noone has the right to say without a doubt its not what it is.
No, I posted here first, then on the Prop Den. Check the dates. You are the one stirring the pot here, and forcing me to address your personal threat against me, forcing me to defend my assessment. But I am happy to do so.Its in poor taste that you take whats on the Propden and try to stir the pot over here.
Why then don't you ask Don Bies which helmet is ROTJ and which is ESB. He is a member here. Steve Sansweet's Vader has a ROTJ helmet on it and if you look very carefully, the chestbox is also distinctly ROTJ, not ESB.One of your unfounded facts why you say its Rotj and not Esb was the filled in center strip on the dome,lets touch upon that One, our good friend steve sansweet has on his original vader head with a filled in cenetr strip so is his a fake also and not to mention the vader profiles sold with a letter from george lucas stating it was from Empire strikes back a few years ago the don bies one it has the same filled in center strip.
No, George Lucas is not a liar, he is just not able to tell the difference and everyone knows that.So my point on that is you are also calling george lucas a liar as well.you choose to be pesimistic in your findings and research and that makes not for a Great Expert on Props.
Oh really. Well, the person's name was already used on the forums and the person in question actually had an interview on The Prop Blog advertising his auction Vader suit. So he put himself in the public domain open for discussion.FYI Also its illegal to use a person name here or anywhere in the public domain with clear intent to defame.
And there is no intent to defame here, I am simply providing an assessment of the prop offered up for auction. It would be no different if you consulted an art expert on a particular piece in regard to its authenticity.