HD Screen Matching the Profiles Kirk Tunic

**Linnear** · Jul 12, 2012

I wanted to start a new thread where there can be serious discussion and a sharing of the process that went into proving without a doubt that the Kirk Tunic in the Profiles auction is in fact a Shatner First Season Kirk Tunic.

While some questioned whether Shatner actually wore the tunic even though it was screen matched to Kirk (which we have now proven was worn by Shatner by screen matching), Gerald Gurian, James Calwey and I thought we should go into even more detail and get more screencaps.

[FONT=Arial]The Kirk tunic I owned (which is now in Profiles in History's auction) was clearly an early first season velour tunic. The rib-knit collar with drawstring was a dead give-away. And while we had positively matched the Kirk Tunic with "This Side of Paradise", James Cawley was convinced it was also the tunic in " Shore Leave".[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]So James dove into the HD screencaps on Trekcore and when I was on the phone with James Cawley yesterday and he said he had spent two hours screen matching the Kirk Tunic to "Shore Leave" and was convinced that the Kirk tunic was in fact used on the planet side scenes in that episode. We spent 30 minutes reviewing specific screencaps and I was convinced. Three things were tells:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]1) The collar at the point had a small indent on the left.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]2) The patch was sewn on in a distinct way.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]3) The collar where the zipper closure hits the black collar was the same.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]So here are the details:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]1) The collar at the point had a small indent on the left.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]Kirk's tunic on the Enterprise. Note the fabric around the point:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]Kirk's tunic on the planet. Note fabric indent on left side of point (looking at it)[/FONT]

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[/FONT]

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[FONT=Arial]Kirk tunic has same indent:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]2) Patch Right Side "point"[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]The patch is sewn on with the right side (looking at it) point pointed outwards, not down as usual.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]

[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]

[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]Note point on patch points down on Kirk's distressed, post-Finnegan fight, tunic:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]Here are two previous Shatner Kirk tunics at auction, the first was Profiles in 2003 and the other is from Butterfield's. Note the patch points are pointing downwards[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]

[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]

[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]3) The collar where the zipper closure hits the black collar looks the same. Now this is the hardest to verify and probably the weakest argument. It is hard to tell, but with everything else we know, it reinforces that this is the same tunic.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]Thanks to James for his hard work here. His attention to detail and understanding of tailoring and costume design is a huge asset to this process. James has given us a lot of insight into HOW these tunics were made.

Now we didn't stop there. See the next post as we pick up Gerald's efforts.

Alec[/FONT]

**RPF Support**

**Linnear** · Jul 12, 2012

After James great work on "Shore Leave", Gerald went after the HD screencaps and matched the braid. The photos are a bit fuzzy, but there is no question, the braid is the same. It also helps that the braid is very unevenly done among different Kirk costumes, so there is a lot of variety

Ultimately, having three people working together screen capping means you see more, and you can validate each other's matches. A couple times I told Gerald or James I didn't think a particular screen cap was good enough and we found a better one.

And there is more than what we just post here.

Alec

**Linnear** · Jul 12, 2012

In answer to the two questions on the other thread.

1) The tunic is the right color, they show up greener on camera.

2) The patch is original. Confirmed by 3 experts. It is clearly constructed like the originals too.

Alec

**newworld** · Jul 12, 2012

Linnear said:

A couple times I told Gerald or James I didn't think a particular screen cap was good enough and we found a better one.

And THAT is how you get the best results. Don't settle for so-so matches or vague, blurry detail.

I said from the beginning that I didn't have a horse in this race. My one and only issue was that a "Shatner Kirk" claim needed absolute proof with Shatner's face wearing the piece in a definable way. The two Shatner close-ups do just that. The detail of the zipper seam with its specific contours, the contours of the fabric around the collar and the details of puckering in the collar itself are all consistent with the Profiles Tunic. THAT is screen matching. When combined with the badge and braid detail already mentioned, it's a stronger – MUCH stronger – and solid case. This is definitive.

You wanted to make this about me and you but it was always about THIS to me. Definitive photographic proof. For me, this is the only level of information that should be acceptable for a claim like this one.

Is it hard? Absolutely! It's a super ***** going through hours and hours of footage looking for something that might not even exist. I know from first hand experience. But it's required and necessary so that fraud cannot slip in.

You evidently have felt all along that I set the bar too high. I have certainly believed that you set it too low. If my actions spurred on this effort to find better evidence, then so be it – I think the situation is better for it. Because it's only by setting the bar high that truth can be known. Absolute, physical – in this case photographic – proof.

My congratulations to Mr. Cawley who evidently made this find. And to you Alec, for pushing him to do so. Finally.

**Apollo** · Jul 12, 2012

I think you two need to get a room!

**bsgcollecting** · Jul 12, 2012

Cheers for starting a separate thread for this, I really enjoy watching the matches 'being made' as it were

BEST AUCTION ITEM THIS SUMMER.

No question.

(Possibly because theres hardly any 'Nu' Battlestar stuff going

)

**TerryMcIntosh** · Jul 12, 2012

Let me start by saying that I have no dog in this fight whatsoever, so I am completely impartial, yet skeptical in life by nature.

Based on my extensive review of the evidence that Alec presented, and after locating the frames he provided on my own BluRay copies of ST:TOS and compared those non-compressed versions against the photos of the actual item for sale, including performing geometric comparisons on the screen caps and photos to things like the structure and shape of Shatner's fingernails -- some are more round at the cuticle and some (especially his right middle finger) are more almond shaped -- I will be choosing to side with Alec on this.

Not that anyone asked my opinion mind you, but IMHO he makes a lot of sense and has clearly gone to great lengths to secure verification from those who many would consider know best. That all said, I'm rolling pennies now in the hopes that I may have a shot at acquiring the piece as he has proved to my satisfaction that it is what it is claimed to be and I don't take such things at all lightly.

Best,

Terry

**Linnear** · Jul 12, 2012

Thank you Terry. From the beginning we provided an abndance of evidence, that some people on the other thread just didn't want to pay attention to.

It is funny, but talking tio Brian Chanes of Profiles (He and Fong Sam are two awesome guys) here at the San Diego Comic Con, he said that he had no doubt it was a Shatner Kirk and he was satisfied with our document.

All the tells of a Kirk tunic were there for anyone who knew anything about TOS tunics (none of those people being here on this forum frankly). You don't need the screencaps to know it is a Kirk Hero. You just need to know what makes it so. I have even spoken to another collector who has owns a Shatner Kirk Hero and he agreed.

However, we then went to the length of proving through screencaps that it was a Shatner Kirk. Again, some people didn't want to admit the "This Side of Paradise" screencaps were definitive. Profiles felt they were adequate as did just about everyone I know.

The "Shore Leave Screencaps" which James Cawley started and I worked on with him (he was working without the HD screencaps even) just go to prove that we now have TWO episodes we definitively know the tunic was used in.

I didn't believe it was a Kirk tunic when I was first told by the experts, because what are the chances of a Kirk tunic walking into our office? But it did, and we have made a conclusive case.

Alec

**dbuck** · Jul 12, 2012

Linnear said:

From the beginning we provided an abndance of evidence, that some people on the other thread just didn't want to pay attention to.

No, your evidence on the other thread is poor, not an abundance. Had you been using only that evidence in a court case you probably would have lost. Name dropping with no context, low-rez caps of Shatner's hand and references to a mystery 11 page document with you vociferously inferring that anyone disagreeing with you was a fool was not the approach that wins over the members of the RPF, as you found out. Someone is going to drop some serious money on this item, they need awesome proof, not merely what had been shown.

Had you simply started with these better pictures you would have had a different result.

**gbg1701** · Jul 13, 2012

To comment on dbucks remarks about the evidence on the other thread being poor -- that's simply an invalid assertion. I worked with Alec, James & Roger on the authentication of the Shatner / Kirk tunic; and it was very apparent to me when I saw the opening remarks of the other thread that it was just setting the stage for ill conceived attacks on the reputations of the authenticators, Profiles, etc. and basically an unreasonable denial of the validity of most of the evidence presented favoring authenticity. Don Hillenbrand certainly misrepresented the facts on multiple issues without the slightest regard for the truth and provided no substantiating evidence - just sweeping and truly ignorant defamatory statements. He then posted a blurry partial photo of a tunic and claimed blurry lines were seams on a double gusset. They could have just as easily been wrinkles as seams; and indeed the leftmost one tapered very sharply to the right and ended up very close to the middle seam - absolutely incorrect to the true design of a double gusset. Further, he indicated it was a Paul Baxley though no face was present in the photo; something he said was necessary for others to support their claims later on in the thread. Yet despite the flaws of the supposed Baxley photo, no one seemed to challenge the credibility of the picture or the assertions; but just piled on with cheap shots at Profiles, etc. and invalid (for the TOS era) assertions about the use of stunt actors for hand shots. Matt very, very strongly asserted that stunt actors for hand closeups were done , quote, ALL OF THE TIME, unquote - which was not the case in TOS. The implication was very clear that Alec should be branded insane for just suggesting otherwise. Also, it really seemed to me for a while that - by accepting the Captain's Braid match to the "This Side of Paradise" screenshot and by denying the assertion that it was Shatner's hand was on the transporter - the folks here were seriously contending that Desilu would create a "hero" gusseted Captains tunic and then strictly consign it to stunt use only and NEVER let Shatner wear it. That would truly never be the case at all; it's just not how the TOS production in the '60s operated. I think it's hard to deny that several on this forum just seem to enjoy negativity and taking cheap shots at others in the name of humor; which is unfortunate and detracts from serious discussion. (I honestly don't see how some of the derogatory remarks are allowed given the policy I just read when registering today about refraining from "personal" attacks.) I know I was unfairly attacked. If folks tried to truly "study" some of those photos Alec posted in the earlier thread without automatic, built-in negative bias; it would have been a friendlier discussion.

The specific evidence that Alec posted on the other thread that dbuck just called poor was a definitive screen match of the Captain Braid to "This Side of Paradise" (which established the tunic was a TOS Kirk); several screenshots showing that Shatner indeed was used on occasion when close up hand shots were needed (as opposed to that being an impossibility); and finally an excellent photo comparing multiple characteristics of Shatner's hand to the hand on the transporter. He does have a distinct thumb, plus other factors, that makes it possible to identify the hand without a face in the photo. Collectively not poor evidence at all.

Gerald

**tonykch** · Jul 13, 2012

gbg1701 said:

The specific evidence that Alec posted on the other thread that dbuck just called poor was a definitive screen match of the Captain Braid to "This Side of Paradise" (which established the tunic was a TOS Kirk);

It was circumstantial evidence. Just because a tunic was worn on screen does not mean it was worn by Kirk.

several screenshots showing that Shatner indeed was used on occasion when close up hand shots were needed (as opposed to that being an impossibility);

Again, circumstantial. Just because Shatner was used in some close ups does not mean he was used in all of them.

and finally an excellent photo comparing multiple characteristics of Shatner's hand to the hand on the transporter. He does have a distinct thumb, plus other factors, that makes it possible to identify the hand without a face in the photo. Collectively not poor

The photo was far from excellent. Especially to someone who isn't hoping that it is a Kirk tunic.

I agree that had he presented the evidence he has in this thread in the other one, there would have been no argument.

**Linnear** · Jul 13, 2012

tonykch said:

It was circumstantial evidence. Just because a tunic was worn on screen does not mean it was worn by Kirk.

The screen match WAS To Kirk. The difference was between Kirk and Shatner. What you MEANT to say was just because it is Kirk's hand, does not mean it is Shatner's hand.

tonykch said:

The photo was far from excellent. Especially to someone who isn't hoping that it is a Kirk tunic.

The photo was a perfect match. You can't even argue that. What we posted was a smaller version so maybe you couldn't see the detail. But we had a high res screencap and it was 100% definitive. And also, my assumption was it was NOT a Kirk. Proving that demands a very hogh standard

The photos were very clear and the screen matches from "This Side of Paradise" were perfect. There was no question except to people on this forum more interested in arguing. Three different TOS Tunic experts agreed, as did I. And the fact that the tunic was further screen matched to "Shore Leave" just goes to show that our previous assertions were dead on.

But no use arguing here. This place is like the Monty Python skit.

**newworld** · Jul 13, 2012

Linnear said:

But no use arguing here.

And yet you do it. I for one realize that our (mortals) best bet is to simply genuflect to you and move on. Consider it done, Oh God of Props and Costumes.

BTW, I owe you thanks. Every time you type something about me I make new friends. Keep up the great work.

Stalkin' Don

**tonykch** · Jul 14, 2012

Linnear said:

Three different TOS Tunic experts agreed, as did I.

I doubt those experts were using just the evidence presented in the original thread. The rest of us were. And it didn't support the claim based on the evidence presented.

**CY Productions** · Jul 14, 2012

Does anyone know how much the Kirk tunic (Bill Shatner #2) sold for in the other auction a few years ago? Would like to know if anyone can remember.
Thanks!

**SciFiMuseum** · Jul 14, 2012

It went for $42500 ($48875 with premium)

**gbg1701** · Jul 15, 2012

That $42500 high bid was in 2003 - Profiles Auction 17. In 2001, another 2nd Season Kirk velour drew a high bid of $40,000; in 1996 at Profiles Collectors Ranson II auction, a Kirk marked "W. SHATNER #4" sold for $10080; and in the 1993 Butterfield Bill Theiss Estate sale, the Shatner tunic sold for $18400.

Given the time since the 2003 sale, this auction should set a new record for a Shatner tunic - possibly a new record for a Star Trek costume. (I believe that belongs to the McCoy Tholian Web Spacesuit from Christies 2006 at $144,000; followed by the Spock 3rd season tunic from Profiles Auction 14 which went for $132250 with buyers premium on top of the $115000 high bid).

Gerald

**Pobbrett** · Jul 16, 2012

its a shame more of this info wasn't included in the auction details as a lot of this could have been avoided, this thread provides much cleaner proof to the untrained eye, i think the original thread had its merits in so much as its showed a very pricey item which at first glance people are expected to take at face value, a few days later and the answers to those questions have been given, had this info been given or linked to even there would have been very little to argue.
i can see both sides to the argument there was very little shown to verify the item, some of the images given could be taken as ambiguous but others seem to clearly and determinatively show this item.
at the end of the day its in profiles interest to solidly prove the items validity which they sadly decided not to disclose, surely not doing so could impact the end price.

it would be very interesting to see the 11 page document if nothing else to see what i imagine was a huge amount effort going through the process of identifying key evidence.

good luck with the sale.

**gbg1701** · Jul 16, 2012

Hi Pobbrett:

Much of the information contained in the 11 page document is also presented in the lengthy article / photostudy on this tunic that I published at my site; which may be viewed at: Star Trek Prop, Costume & Auction Authority: Special Photo Study: Star Trek Original Series William Shatner 1st Season Captain Kirk Tunic

I believe that a link to this article was also present in the other thread; although I suspect not all readers of the thread visited the link. Also, the newly discovered information regarding the screen matches to "Shore Leave" was not initially incorporated into the article but added a few days afterwards as soon as the information became available.

Gerald

**Pobbrett** · Jul 17, 2012

thank you Gerald very interesting read

**gbg1701** · Jul 17, 2012

My pleasure, Pobbrett. About 2 years ago, a different Shatner worn TOS tunic - this time a formal command dress tunic that was screen used in "Space Seed" - was the focus of another photostudy on the site. It's owner had purchased it in 1993 at the Butterfields Bill Theiss Estate Auction and was very gracious in providing many high resolution photos for display on the site. The article may be seen at: Star Trek Prop, Costume & Auction Authority: Special PhotoStudy: Star Trek The Original Series William Shatner Command Dress Tunic

Gerald

**Jaruemalak** · Jul 20, 2012

Linnear said:

But no use arguing here. This place is like the Monty Python skit.

One of the best, most accurate statements I've ever seen posted!

**SciFiMuseum** · Jul 20, 2012

Jaruemalak said:

One of the best, most accurate statements I've ever seen posted!

So is yours!!!

**gbg1701** · Jul 21, 2012

Alec does possess the ability at times to make profound, one-sentence assessments of the situation. His first line below in an extract from his latest blog post is also very telling, IMHO, about those who opposed him - and were ultimately proved wrong - in this latest "debate".

I'm amazed at how some of the analysis on my own site has been misinterpreted - or perhaps deliberately misstated - in other threads - totally missing the point of my article; but the brilliant minds involved even have difficulty interpreting each others remarks amongst themselves. Truly hilarious and very entertaining,

Very Best,
Gerald

**tonykch** · Jul 21, 2012

gbg1701 said:

His first line below in an extract from his latest blog post is also very telling, IMHO, about those who opposed him - and were ultimately proved wrong - in this latest "debate".

Therein lies the problem. I read both threads from beginning to end. I don't really think anyone was saying that the tunic wasn't real. They were saying that there was a lack of evidence to support it. They weren't "proved wrong". They were given the evidence they were requesting to support the claim. Eventually.

Most of the evidence came to light after, and in many cases because, of the thread questioning the evidence. Certainly nothing wrong with that.

HD Screen Matching the Profiles Kirk Tunic

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