pepakura ethics (or is it ok to make moulds/bucks from pep files?)

I am really curious to hear peoples opinion on this. My stance is that yes it is ok and Ill give an example. Anyone who has done any Ghostbuster propping has heard the term "Stefan's plans". Most people agree that they are the best plans for building a proton pack, and almost everyone who sells pack shells uses his plans for their build. He put in hours and hours of work to make the best possible refrences for all of us to use, and then put it up on the internet for free. Now just because you have access to these plans does not mean that you are capable of making great bucks or molds. It takes tons of skill and time to translate stefan's plans into the real world and no two "stefan accurate" packs are the same. I see pep files the same way. They are a great start and the people who made them are heroes of our community, but it still takes time and skill, sweat and tears of the builder to make them and finish out the details, and if they want to make and sell copies of their work(as long as they acknowldge the person(s) who made the pep file) that is their right. How do the rest of you feel?

Its ok unless the modeller says otherwise.

Tell you what, if I ever made money out of a pep file, I'd pay a small % to the guy who made it. Heck! Without it, almost 80% of the iron man projects here wouldn't exist

I'd think that would be a nice thing to do

Im not a guy to use pep, but making money off a helm created by pep, wouldnt that be like selling a painting done with paint by numbers? I know i might get a lot of guff for saying that, cause i know a lot of Pep makers go beyond the simple pep base and make it their own, but some dont

I didn't know the pep scales itself
cut, glues and builds itself. sands and details itself prime and paints itself.

The modellers choose to share their work.
If they say don't mold it you don't and if they say its cool you credit them.

There is no issue with this.

It sucks when people deny using the pep files claiming they sculpted it and then sell casts.

Pretty unethical there.

Honestly, I think people who provide pep files for free are doing a huge service, so although I know a lot of work goes into a master to mould and sell, I feel like it's kinda piggybacking on somebody else's free gift/work and unless you're going to keep track of where you get your pep files and get the creator's permission, I think this is wrong.

Guess I'll be the first Pepakura modeler to jump in!

I'm all for it. My Daft Punk files have been pepped, molded, cast and sold, and I wouldn't have it any other way. If nothing else, at the very least you could ask the modeler, but I've explicitly stated numerous times on other forums that people are free to use the files as they choose, as long as they don't take credit for my original files.

Neon Sentry said:

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Guess I'll be the first Pepakura modeler to jump in!

I'm all for it. My Daft Punk files have been pepped, molded, cast and sold, and I wouldn't have it any other way. If nothing else, at the very least you could ask the modeler, but I've explicitly stated numerous times on other forums that people are free to use the files as they choose, as long as they don't take credit for my original files.

great attitude to have about it. If everyone is open with , there shouldn't be any problems. I would like to have an Iron Man helmet and bust just for my collection and pep may be my only cheaper choice

TMP said:

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THE ISSUE...
I know if we made a CUSTOM sculpt and shown it from all angles that could been replicated with Pepakura 3D programs in a day.
Then to shortly after se the pepakura file maker offer it for free and tell that anyone can use it to what they want.... That would not be ok with us. I dont belive it would be with any other either.

Is this not the same thing as taking the DVD or Bluray and and seeing the suit from all angles and then copying it in clay? By your definition that is also recasting. And I am sure Marvel is not "ok" with it.

And with all due respect why does SIWDAT get to become the Iron Man police and decide all the rules of conduct? Even the prop community as a whole cannot make these rules. They are made by the studio and none of us follow them.

I think it's cool though it's definitely appreciated when someone asks permission first as we do put a lot of work into our models.

TMP said:

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The pep file have primarly followed the original lines.
The big difference is that the file is offerd for free. If this was charged for we would probalby say it was LINES CAST OF... or something.
I dont intend to offend any papakura makers, because i do admire their dedication and hard work. I do in fact look forward seeing allot of these suits finished.

But we have to have guidelines of this, one or the other way.

THE ISSUE...
I know if we made a CUSTOM sculpt and shown it from all angles that could been replicated with Pepakura 3D programs in a day.
Then to shortly after se the pepakura file maker offer it for free and tell that anyone can use it to what they want.... That would not be ok with us. I dont belive it would be with any other either.

I can't agree with this at all. 3d modelling is not a matter of just tracing an image from different angles. Good 3d models can take weeks to months to complete just like an old fashion clay model. I could equally say that any clay model that is based off of reference images is a recast of the original prop.

TMP said:

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I think i have to agree with www.siwdat.com stance on this.
If we dont put any drawn lines on this, how can we draw lines on the other creations out there beeing modified and copied.

The rule on SIWDAT is:
If an existing prop, licened or fanmade is altered, modified or resculpted on top of an existing peice and it is not made moulds of to recast it is considerd as a personal project. The moment the armor is moulded to replicate and offerd it is regarded as modified recast peice.

In regards of Pepakura.. The instant the peices is moulded to make several casts it becomes a "recast" peice in my opinion.

Pepakura falls in a category that is hard to pinpoint. Because they can take and outline the details by lines from ANY photo reffrence and turn it into a 3D. This is one of the reasons the Warmachine was adopted so fast due to Hottoys/ Sideshow Photos showing it from all the angles.

The pep file have primarly followed the original lines.
The big difference is that the file is offerd for free. If this was charged for we would probalby say it was LINES CAST OF... or something.

I dont intend to offend any papakura makers, because i do admire their dedication and hard work. I do in fact look forward seeing allot of these suits finished.

But we have to have guidelines of this, one or the other way.

THE ISSUE...
I know if we made a CUSTOM sculpt and shown it from all angles that could been replicated with Pepakura 3D programs in a day.
Then to shortly after se the pepakura file maker offer it for free and tell that anyone can use it to what they want.... That would not be ok with us. I dont belive it would be with any other either.

I hope this make sence from the sculptors point of stance.

I can't believe I just read that coming form you??? Why would you hound Myself and Stealth to join you community and even open up a section for PEP when this is how you and your Forum feel about this?? Holy hipokrit

On the topic , if an artist builds these and give them out on the net I'm guessing they don't have a problem with people using them how they would like.
I have always contacted the person who modeled the pep before I mold it. Contacted Dung and DF for my stuff as well as Carnage and Clarx. None of them had a problem at all. They even agreed it's a base not a finished product. The pep part although long and sometimes painful the filling and finishing work is as big or bigger part to the process. JMO what do I know.

coofunkcurly said:

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Is this not the same thing as taking the DVD or Bluray and and seeing the suit from all angles and then copying it in clay? By your definition that is also recasting. And I am sure Marvel is not "ok" with it.

And with all due respect why does SIWDAT get to become the Iron Man police and decide all the rules of conduct? Even the prop community as a whole cannot make these rules. They are made by the studio and none of us follow them.

good point. in the end we all are making copies of something thats been created already

Well I am glad to hear that people who do the modeling share my stance one it. I also agree its just common courtesy to ask permission.

TMP I think your logic on this is flawed. I suppose if someone cast a pep piece after it was folded but no detail work/sanding ect. was done to it, it would be a complete "recast" of what the modeler/unfolder did, but no one does that. And even then no 2 people put the same pep file together the same way.

"THE ISSUE...
I know if we made a CUSTOM sculpt and shown it from all angles that could been replicated with Pepakura 3D programs in a day.
Then to shortly after se the pepakura file maker offer it for free and tell that anyone can use it to what they want.... That would not be ok with us. I dont belive it would be with any other either."

This makes no sense. Did you not use reference photos to make your sculpt? Is that not the same thing as a pep modeler using your photos as a reference? Its not like they can plug some different angled shots into a computer and hit the " Make 3D" button. The only difference I can see is the medium. And even then the pep model would still have differences in it, just as your sculpt has differences from the movie used ones. Maby if someone used a 3D scanner on your work I could see the argument but the likelihood of that is pretty far out there. But this is all hypothetical as there would be no reason for someone to use any fans creation as a reference when there are ample pics of the original.

Knowone251 said:

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Well I am glad to hear that people who do the modeling share my stance one it. I also agree its just common courtesy to ask permission.

TMP I think your logic on this is flawed. I suppose if someone cast a pep piece after it was folded but no detail work/sanding ect. was done to it, it would be a complete "recast" of what the modeler/unfolder did, but no one does that. And even then no 2 people put the same pep file together the same way.

"THE ISSUE...
I know if we made a CUSTOM sculpt and shown it from all angles that could been replicated with Pepakura 3D programs in a day.
Then to shortly after se the pepakura file maker offer it for free and tell that anyone can use it to what they want.... That would not be ok with us. I dont belive it would be with any other either."

This makes no sense. Did you not use reference photos to make your sculpt? Is that not the same thing as a pep modeler using your photos as a reference? Its not like they can plug some different angled shots into a computer and hit the " Make 3D" button. The only difference I can see is the medium. And even then the pep model would still have differences in it, just as your sculpt has differences from the movie used ones. Maby if someone used a 3D scanner on your work I could see the argument but the likelihood of that is pretty far out there. But this is all hypothetical as there would be no reason for someone to use any fans creation as a reference when there are ample pics of the original.

QFT!

There is a lot of ignorance when it comes to pep I think. Some folks think it is way easier than it actually is. It is a great tool in prop building but only a small part in producing a great end product.

To me it's the same as the Tuttles from OC choppers or Jessie James from West coast choppers. They buy after market products from so many venders like wheels, seats and fenders and then modify them and sell them as their custom creations. It was through their vision and modification and SKILL that they produced something worth selling. If it wasn't for them, those Raw fenders would still be sitting in boxes somewhere,gathering dust,in the dark......lonely (ok I may have gone to far) but the point is, Pep files don't do anything while they're just floating in cyber space. Having said that, the guys that produce them should take just as much pride as the guys that make the kinda bike fenders worthy enough to be used by the best custom chopper guys. If these guys decided to start selling their files, I'd still buy 'em....or.... I can struggle trying to figure it out myself. I could also try and figure out my own formula for Bondo to say that I made it but that aint gonna happen.

I think it's fine to make bucks from pep, especially the pep thats out there for free. If I were to make a pep file and offered it for free I wouldn't care what people did with it. Once it is glassed it doesn't look neat and pretty anymore . The nice pep builds have the details re sculpted back into the fiberglass resin and finished in a way that is smooth an neat. it might not be as hard as sculpting from scratch but it's not the same piece as it started out as when it was glue and paper. Every pep is finished differently. The best a pep file can offer is a great base to start from. The magic is in the glassing and the finishing; the detail work. I don't see molding a peped build as recasting. You do owe a lot of credit to the pep file maker. You'd have a lot more work to do without him or her, so if you profit it would be cool if you gave them a little kick back.

I'd still pay a small % of any earnings to the file maker...even if he says it's for free. Takes a lot of fairness to do that. At least, I'd do that.

TMP said:

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Yes the 3D modeler uses time, but in most cases takes the lines of directly of the orignial photo, aligning almsot everything as it was. It can somehow be assosiated similar to takeing a baking paper on top of an existing art drawing or photo then trade the pen over the original art and call it thier own. Yes possible modifying some lines or move it a bit or even color it different... I know i am taking this example to the extreme... But i dont know how i can describe it with the correct words.

I'm sorry but your being naïve about 3d modeling. Its called modeling for something since it isnt just aligning lines. It can even take the same amount of time then a real life clay model. Its the same principe just that its digital.
Be sure to know what you speak of before you say this
Dont you try to align corners with a ref on a clay model to? Whe just have the option to overlay it. You could do the same with a beamer.
Its practicly the same...

TMP, you're making a lot of assumptions. And I really don't appreciate having my work as a 3D modeler being referred to as glorified tracing. I actually find sculpting in clay infinitely easier than modeling on the computer. And I simply cannot fathom how utilizing reference images suddenly makes me a recaster, but you an artist.

You yourself used images of the Iron Man suit to build your... Iron Man suit. Reference images have no impact on what you're debating, and if they do, you haven't stated what that is.

A Pepakura file is essentially a 3-dimensional template for creating an item. Nothing more, nothing less. It's an advanced form of blueprinting. But, you still need the talent of a crew (even if it's a one-man crew) to bring those blueprints into reality.

I've spent the last two years working on an accurate 3D model of RoboCop. I've seen at least two other people attempt this as well, and they either did not make the file available, or are not finished. I fully intend to release this file on the internet when it's completed to allow people to create their own RoboCop suits. And yes, make molds of their suits, and sell casts of their suits. If I didn't want people doing that stuff, I wouldn't release the files, simple as that. Besides, if nothing else, it'll help stem the flow of people buying suits from that scam artist.