AA case begins

atacpdx said:

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Pro-AA's are sad. They are now faced with "Told ya so" and in light of that, they are squirming to avoid making the statement "I was wrong". They drank the AA Kool-aid. They overlooked glaring issues in favor of "a piece of history".

The pro's need to be gracious. The Anti's need to be humble. Gino needs to play nice with other people's pictures. AA needs to panhandle so he can pay his upcoming debts and everyone needs to thank Brian Muir and Liz Moore.

See...
Simple!

I WAS WRONG.

Good Lord Almighty!!!!

Why is this so hard people? Grow up already!!! This whole thread can be boiled down to...

AA Lied! The truth is now out.

Anti-AA'ers are thrilled. They are dancing and yelling "Told ya so". Some are really rubbing it in as payback. They doubted AA and fussed since day one. Regardless of motives, they argued at every turn that AA's claims were crap. Some argued so vehemently they were banned.

Pro-AA's are sad. They are now faced with "Told ya so" and in light of that, they are squirming to avoid making the statement "I was wrong". They drank the AA Kool-aid. They overlooked glaring issues in favor of "a piece of history".

The pro's need to be gracious. The Anti's need to be humble. Gino needs to play nice with other people's pictures. AA needs to panhandle so he can pay his upcoming debts and everyone needs to thank Brian Muir and Liz Moore.

See...
Simple!

Oh yes and mods since the Moog was right about AA after all, you ought to invite him

And those that were just interested in knowing the truth one way or the other.
Not taking the stories from either side as gospel and actually trying to weigh up the arguments from all camps and trying to get to the truth.

motivealloy said:

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Could someone post the "AA proof" photo that's on Prop Den?

I can't access that site cause my firewall here at work is blocking it.

If that's not possible at least give a description of what the photo is. I keep reading about that actual proof photo and have no idea what it shows.

Can't post the link, as Brian Muir has asked it not to be shared outside of the Prop Den. The picture is basically the clay sculpt of the first trooper bucket. The eyes are one piece, as opposed to two. The mouth area and teardrop look different as well, but it is CLEARLY recognizable as the trooper we have today. All credit to the late Liz Moore for her master craftsmanship in sculpting the helmet.

Actually, once the pics are posted on the web, don't they become public domain?
Tell me if I'm wrong.

atacpdx said:

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Oh yes and mods since the Moog was right about AA after all, you ought to invite him back.

Lifting that ban would be the honorable and right thing to do.

DARKSIDE72 said:

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Lifting that ban would be the honorable and right thing to do.

Hey I'm all for that. I miss Moogy on the RPF.

Bring him back from the South China Sea's

Thats 3 votes already.

Cheers

Jez

Qui-Gonzalez said:

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Can't post the link, as Brian Muir has asked it not to be shared outside of the Prop Den. The picture is basically the clay sculpt of the first trooper bucket. The eyes are one piece, as opposed to two. The mouth area and teardrop look different as well, but it is CLEARLY recognizable as the trooper we have today. All credit to the late Liz Moore for her master craftsmanship in sculpting the helmet.

Thanks for the description Qui-Gonzalez.

Is on a work bench with tools and such, or more like a final beauty shot? Black and white I'm assuming.

I'll have to see if I can access the site from home. Sounds like an interesting photo. Maybe someone will make a Liz Moore tribute sculpt trooper helmet...

Qui-Gonzalez said:

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All of this bitterness regarding this or that member is all horse***** to me. As has been said before, it's all plastic and fiberglass. The debating back and forth is a fun way to break up the day.

Despite some remarks from folks who are markedly anti-community most times, community when it suits them, we are all part of the same Geekdom.

To me, not knowing the full story about Ainsworth when I found out about the deal, I sincerely thought it as some charlatan trying to take and claim a piece of my childhood for his own. That is what hacked me off. I know it seems hokey to some of you, but that is how I personally saw it. I know that all of these things I grew to love as a kid sprang from the fertile imagination of Lucas and his hired gun artisans. Andrew Ainsworth may be a lot of things, but he is NO artisan.

I generally tend to stay away from these "tempests in teapots"--I tend to play my hand very close to the chest--but I think the above sentiments kind of capture how I feel about the situation.

Overall what strikes me is how sad all of this is. Sad that people have become so hateful and vicious over something that really should be a fun diversion that helps some of us recapture our childhood. I understand that we are passionate about our hobby but, really, nobody's life depends on this stuff--it's a costume.

Especially sad that AA, who could have been a hero if he had just been up front about everything, has ruined his own reputation and sullied his product for a lot of people. I guess he thought his product would have more cache if it was thought that he had created the trooper helmet instead of merely fabricating it. How many people lined up to buy his stuff just based upon that fact he was the guy that originally made the helmets in 1976 (not designed, sculpted, pooped, whatever)? Even though I couldn't afford one of the things that idea alone was a tremendous attraction to me. How cool would it be to have a stormtrooper helmet made by the guy who made them for the original movie? AA didn't have to lie to get people to buy his stuff! It might not have appealed to everyone but nothing ever does. If Greg Jein or Brick Price or whoever decided to start marketing replicas of their original props we'd all flip! (not that AA is in any way, shape, or form a Greg Jein or the like but hopefully you see my point)

Ultimately, about a year ago, I was able to get ahold of an SDS TIE helmet from a fellow RPFer. Now, whenever I look at it, whatever coolness factor the design holds will be tempered by knowledge of his character, not just rumors and speculation.

Sad.

Dave

GINO said:

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Actually, once the pics are posted on the web, don't they become public domain?
Tell me if I'm wrong.

incorrect

copyright is always kept by the owner of the pics, regardless of where they appear unless someone expressly says they are public domain

just because they were used in court, and those proceedings are public, does not imply forfeiture of ownership

motivealloy said:

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Thanks for the description Qui-Gonzalez.

Is on a work bench with tools and such, or more like a final beauty shot? Black and white I'm assuming.

I'll have to see if I can access the site from home. Sounds like an interesting photo. Maybe someone will make a Liz Moore tribute sculpt trooper helmet...

It's on a stand, there is a McQuarrie looking helmet to the right in the photo and what looks to be pieces of armor on the table. There also APPEARS to still be some shavings on the stand. It's a very cool piece of nostalgia.

The images could also fall under fair use if it meets the four statutory factors.

Regardless of the legal issues if someones asked that pics not be posted you should respect their wishes.

defstartrooper said:

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And those that were just interested in knowing the truth one way or the other.
Not taking the stories from either side as gospel and actually trying to weigh up the arguments from all camps and trying to get to the truth.

Hallefrigginlujah! Exactly!

And the truth is always somewhere in the middle.

If I had believed every "obvious lie" that people told or showed on the RPF about Wampa, Gavidoc, Braks, RAC, TE, Gino, Jez, Treadwell, Clutch and about 90% of the RPF then I wouldn't have any friends, wouldn't buy or sell with anyone, wouldn't talk with anyone and would think everyone has some nefarious personality.

Which is why, not having sat down to tea with AA, nor been with him in '76, nor having been privy to his life, nor having visited his shop, nor having read through the LFL historical pictures and documents, nor talking with Brian Muir, John Richardson, nor etc. and so on I and others were willing to see what happened and learn over time rather than pull out our torches and rope.

And what sullied the entire thing more were the shenanigans of the primary TK makers in the background of it all actually ending up lending credence to AA's actions. After all, if they loved the TK so much and were so happy that the original maker was now involved...how come they came out trashing him, his work, and everything about him from the very start? How did they KNOW what he was all about when they never did anything more than talk to the man on the phone...and why do that in the first place if he wasn't the real deal? Hmm...because he ditzed them on entering into a business deal? Because they were afraid of competition? Whether true or not, that was all out there.

Add to that the pile on by those TK maker's friends (and partners) into ANY thread talking about AA and his helmets, and not just talking but slamming and insulting those who supported that AA *MIGHT* be real, just lent more to the "pro-AA" side.

It's the "he doth protest too much" that pushed a lot of people more to AA than away. Only when some hard evidence started to come out, due to the trial, that even those willing to give him benefit of the doubt started to back off (including me).

Lending to AA was also the fact he contributed to the 501st, including charity work. That he was always upfront with people who had problems and always open to show people his shop. Reading the UK prop forum it's pretty clear he was not at all the heinous villain that the US prop members portrayed in spades.

Why did he do what he did? Only he knows. Why was he on one hand seemingly kind and generous, and yet on the other hand some greedy, lying thief? Somewhere in all this is the real Andrew Ainsworth.

It's a sad day for both the pro and anti AA camps.

atacpdx said:

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Oh yes and mods since the Moog was right about AA after all, you ought to invite him back.

Well it takes a thief to know a thief, but this is a definite vote against having someone like him back in.

Lord Abaddon said:

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Well it takes a thief to know a thief, but this is a definite vote against having someone like him back in.

The only thing I think of when people say "Bring Moogy back" is the last round of shenanigans we had with the last round of open registration and how many prior sock puppets he has had. Again, goes to discussing banned members.

Lord Abaddon said:

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Well it takes a thief to know a thief, but this is a definite vote against having someone like him back in.

Maybe you should take your own advice and preach in the mirror "innocent until proven guilty"

The personal attacks, shooting the messenger, diverting the topis and double standards are everything I expect from several member here...

SithLord said:

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BS. The deals were broken and that's when the backstabbing began. The attempts at deals were made, fact. Their motto seems to be if you are not with us, you are against us. There is no room in this hobby for another ultra-accurate TK helmet. If BA started making copies of his helmet do you think the same anti-SDS group would welcome him with open arms? Give me a break.

More deflecting, you sound like a broken record If what he had was real and ultra accurate we wouldn't be at this point now would we.

SithLord said:

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All valid questions, but his motives were insinuated from the beginning without proof. And if he made the originals, how could it be a recast?

There was plenty of proof, your endless photo comparisons show you were blind to it. Umm yeah its called recast a spare part laying around

SithLord said:

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I followed it even before it came onto the RPF. So you saw inaccuracies, big deal. You seem to forget the efforts made to help AA improve the helmets all courtesy of RPF members who gave themselves a pat on the back at the time.

So what, so did a lot of people, including me. Everyone thought at first he didn't know how to assemble them. And your nonsensical point is?

SithLord said:

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No, they were looking for something to incriminate AA, anything. And they found it and took it to LFL. So we can all be thankful for their foresight and contribution to the hobby. I think I'll do the same for the TK helmets makers here.

Again, like others have said, he didn't need any help, he hung himself, deal with it. Since you claim to have followed from the beginning you should have remembered everyone questioning his sanity for being so open. When you don't have clue you shouldn't make false accusations.

SithLord said:

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Ya right. You have no idea the kinds of principles I was trying to defend here on behalf of the hobby. And I was defending AA long before it was found out that TE had betrayed the hobby, and you still support someone like TE.

Again with the drama and the false accusations How exactly do I support TE, because I complained about a crappy inaccurate helmet I paid $800 for?

SithLord said:

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With a statement like that it's clear you have no idea what's in store for the future of the hobby...

Drama alert again With you leading the way I am sure it will be just fine...not.

SithLord said:

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I'm well within my rights to discuss my point of view whether it deals with a stormtrooper helmet's accuracy or lack thereof, or of a legal case dealing with a stormtrooper helmet maker. If the legal discussions bother you then there are plenty of prop threads to enjoy here.

Again since you don't see the point, we aren't in a court room, so I don't have to give anyone the benefit of the doubt nor do I have to consider them innocent untill proven guilty, especially when I know they ripped me off. Maybe you should take your own advice and find another thread.

So is the trial actually over now?

If not how much longer?

micdavis said:

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So is the trial actually over now?

If not how much longer?

Yes, the trial is over, all that is left is judgment and that should be shortly...

Lord Abaddon said:

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And the truth is always somewhere in the middle.

Out of your entire post of horse puckey, this was the only grain of truth. Unfortunately for you and your repaint of history aside, you were never in the middle. Nor were you simply a seeker of truth. You were the #1 leader of the Pro AA camp. You pushed and cheered and rallied for him at even the slightest whisper of an AA thread. So delude yourself, muddy the issue, get naked, drunk and dance away your sorrow beneath the silvery moon. In the morning you will still be as radically and irrationally pro AA as those you crucify for being Anti.

As for your comment about Moog, you are no better informed or enlightened on that subject than your defense of AA apears to have been.

exoray said:

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Maybe you should take your own advice and preach in the mirror "innocent until proven guilty"

The personal attacks, shooting the messenger, diverting the topis and double standards are everything I expect from several member here...

He has a record and admitted to the crime. He even joked about it here and on other forums. How about the terms "double standard" and "hypocrite" when you vilify and attack AA and his supporters before the man has even been convicted, but yet support and back someone who's got a criminal record, has lied and deceived people, and sock puppeted to the RPF countless times. You better look in your own mirror of integrity.

atacpdx said:

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Out of your entire post of horse puckey, this was the only grain of truth. Unfortunately for you and your repaint of history aside, you were never in the middle. Nor were you simply a seeker of truth. You were the #1 leader of the Pro AA camp. You pushed and cheered and rallied for him at even the slightest whisper of an AA thread. So delude yourself, muddy the issue, get naked, drunk and dance away your sorrow beneath the silvery moon. In the morning you will still be as radically and irrationally pro AA as those you crucify for being Anti.

As for your comment about Moog, you are no better informed or enlightened on that subject than your defense of AA apears to have been.

Ah no. What I said and have always said from the very first day was that he should be given a chance. But the pitchforks and noose people wanted blood from not just AA, which would have been one thing, but attacked, slandered and insulted anyone even coming close to giving him the benefit of the doubt. And from the start too I said that we should wait for the court to decide, to see what comes out over time, to learn the truth. Unlike the anti-AA crowd I was willing to accept if he was found to be a liar and have. I've admitted I was wrong about him from what has come out of the trial...FACTS...not the personal bias, supposition, guessing and armchair expert opinions.

As for Moogy, sorry, but he said himself in this forum that he was convicted, that he admitted it, he laughed about it. He made insulting personal attacks upon members, he made comments that were WAY beyond the general cracks made in these threads. Once banned he tried to sock puppet his way in, played games with the staff.

The hypocrisy is outstanding.