Heh, I know you and I Doug get along like peaches and cream but I'll just mention that AA went to LFL several times trying to get something going and they ignored him. So it has nothing to do with arrogance. That doesn't make what he did right, but it's what happened.
And please try not to read into what people say literally or project motives into them. The point I was making about standards in the replica prop community was clear.
AA probably wasnt aware of the potential goldmine that is trooper gear until someone made him aware, and as a man not too familiar with the prop community (fanboys and nutters in his eyes) probably didnt know what kind of poop storm he was bringing down on himself.
I would imagine the trooper armour timelines and history from the start can throw up a few interesting coincidences. Such as the time SDS starts producing and the time certain people start hating on him (rightly so as it turns out)
I do wonder how differently it would have worked out if AA actually did have in his posession the full ANH armour/helmet molds? The case i'm sure would still have gone ahead but would he be getting quite as much vitriol.
He is being bashed from two distinct angles (which he deserves)
1) His bare faced lies about the molds.
2) His unforgivable decision to try to lay claim to IP rights of a 3D image he knew didnt belong to him but to an artist 30 years dead.
Hypothetically, had he actually been telling the truth about the molds, and indeed did still have in his possession all the original ANH armour molds, do we think he'd be hated on quite as much for what he's doing with regards to the IP theft?
I'm just trying to see through the fog of hypocrisy in all this.
i still say smoke him up like a kipper as it stands now mind you but had he the original molds in his possession? 'Meh'
The whole thing was and has been about being misled by AA, telling the world he had THE original molds. When the website popped up and the stunt helmet was revealed big red flags went up about major inaccuracies. Those in the know pointed out the facts about screen used helmets.
We took him down? Thomas LFL/MR are here amongst us as members. AA did this to himself and has only himself to blame for what transpired due to his brash behavior.
Why is this so difficult for the AA camp to comprehend?
tends to get caught up in the heat of the moment, and may even at times say
things I don't mean.. I like to argue a point just like anyone else as long as there
are no personal or verbal attacks being thrown around. Were Cool on My end..
I don't hold Grudges..
Now back to the Argument lol
Thomas I would have to say that when LFL ignored him.. AA should have, at
that point let it Go.. He may not be an Arrogant Man, but it sure was an
Arrogant approach that he took selling his Product..
In regard to saying "we took AA down, not LFL" again, that just holds no water at all. No we didn't. This isn't "our" fault. What, because members here bought AA items? Let me ask you a question. Since it is well known that you and Gino have issues, if LFL went after Gino would you make such a statement, lamenting his demise because members here have supported him and bought items from him? No, I don't think you would. More likely then not, you would applaud his demise and tell people he had it coming and kudos to LFL. You wouldn't be very quick to spread the blame around or take on any yourself with that all inclusive "we." We didn't do this. LFL did. LFL sued Andrew and as much as SOME (like that better Onigiri?) like to take credit for it, this was always in LFL's hands. They spent the money. They are pursuing it. This isn't the fault of the RPF or its members or even the people who bought AA's helmet. As much as I don't care for Matt, this isn't even his fault. Yes, he showed AA a potential market, but AA took this on and ran with it. This isn't Matt's fault or Gino's fault or Jez's fault or the all inclusive "we"s fault. This is LFL and AA and that is it. I just don't understand why you are trying to broaden the net here or trying to diminish the blame. I don't have it out for Andrew nor do I hate him. I don't wish him ill will and I really hate to think about what is probably about to happen to him. Still, HE did this to himself...
Well i for one think it's discraceful that he claimed Liz Moores work as his, to be factual though the IP rights belong to LFL and anyone here hating on someone for ripping off a studio is completely hypocritical.2) His unforgivable decision to try to lay claim to IP rights of a 3D image he knew didnt belong to him but to an artist 30 years dead.
Thanks Doug...sure thing no worries.
DARKSIDE72....my impression was that there was disappointment in there not being a deal with AA...that's all. What transpired after that as you describe I can't really argue with.
"oh boy oh boy oh boy oh buuuuuu... WTF is this?"
It was incredibly confusing and frustrating because we were told these were right off the original molds but it didn't look like it from the very start and it had nothing to do with build... it was the pieces themselves. I really do believe the majority of the members here would have taken a very different pov had AA actually had what he claimed and almost everyone would be lamenting the lawsuit as it would mean the loss of a great piece..
I mean, lets face it, this whole hobby is based on IP theft. You can't deny it. Some try to pretend it isn't or that they stand on some sort of moral highground but they are just blowing smoke up their own butts. The core of this hobby is theft, plain and simple. LFL is simply gracious enough to allow it because most replicators are small time and it is good, free PR. Andrew's IP theft is no different than 1000 people here. Anyone in the prop community who wants to grind an axe over that issue... well... lets see your prop collection. The lying about the molds is something else entirely.
so i guess it really boils down to the age old recasting faux pas he commited from the outset pure and simple and he will for ever go down in the history books as being the idiot who totally underestimated the replica prop community's eye for detail.
when alls said and done, i dont hate the man, i nothing him
I think there were a couple others as well. They, obviously, aren't very active now, but when MR was selling Star Wars items they were posting and even taking care of customer service issues here on the RPF.
Here's some stuff I just wanted to put out there. These are my own scattered random personal feelings about the topic at hand.
-I never had, nor do I now have hate for AA.
-The SDS situation has always been a hot topic because there has been so much unnecessary debate over things that were crystal clear for people like me and a few others from day one. And despite all our attempts to communicate what we knew, it fell on deaf ears to a good number of people.
-There is nothing more frustrating than knowing the truth about a subject, and have people not believe you, or worse ban you from a forum (prop den ) for (sometimes painfully, yet unintentionally) pointing it out to them. I realize my posts can sometimes be considered offensive, but most of the time it is just my frustration directed at specific people.
I'd much rather have people believe what I'm saying 'in the now', than to be able to say 'I told you so' years later.
-I do not have hate for the pro AA people. Just frustration that they didn't have faith in my knowledge. Also that they didn't believe that my desire to have access to accurate pieces FAR overrides my desire to make them. Anyone who knows me on a personal level, can tell you this was never about competition, sour grapes, etc..
In other words, we all had the same goal (to have the most accurate pieces possible in our collections), but they just couldn't get past their personal issues with me to see what I was saying was true.
-Had AA actually had the molds he claimed to, I would have been his #1 cheerleader, and every trooper piece in my collection would be from him.
-The most significant thing that separates AA from anyone else in this hobby, is that he basicly was saying the trooper was his design and not LFL's, and that he had every right to do whatever he wanted with it. I don't know of any SW prop maker who would EVER dare make such a claim.
-I can't speak for others, but I never viewed AA as competition. My extremely limited handful of helmets/armor made available to friends or trusted collectors is no match for someone involved in a full business production. Nor did I, or would I ever want it to be.
If ever I were to be involved in a all out business production on anything, it would ONLY be in conjunction with a licensed company. (I've just never been asked).
-My personal issues with AA stem from:
1. Him lying about the molds (and my disappointment that came with that revelation).
2. Recasting fan produced trooper armor and calling it 'original'.
3. Taking credit for Liz M. sculpt.
4. Being the cause for such contorversy, fighting, and damaged personal relationships with people I used to be cool with.
Hopefully in time, some of that damage can be repaired. It already has with some and I'm thankful for that.
Last edited by GINO; Apr 22, 2008 at 4:08 PM.
Like Gino said, I too am hugely disappointed and wish that things had gone differently.
I can, and did, accept the changes of tact and sales pitches...I've heard and seen that enough time from fan prop makers. I'd even go with his admittance of "fetting the tumblehome", etc.
And it would not be the first time an IP right was found to have been transferred under suspicious circumstances.
BUT...lying about the creator of the helmet, and defaming others involved in the movie to cover that lie? No. No way in hell.
Benefit of the doubt.
What was mind blowing to the other side was how quickly he was vilified on every little thing possible nearly from the beginning. Several people stated from the get go he was not and did not know anything about the prop community and that maybe the MR stand was brought to him to use. Without the plaque, who would know if they didn't know what MR was?
Not all of us can be the all knowing, all seeing Carnac the Magnificent like you Ben.
Last edited by Lord Abaddon; Apr 22, 2008 at 7:09 PM. Reason: Fixed a "duh!"
So now you say AA supporters defended lies? Honestly...
Was the MR stand in the case? Did MR sue AA for the design rights? No, but people here made issue of that and I'm sure brought it to MR's attention.
As far as anyone knew back then, no one else sculpted the helmet and armor so when the armor came out and it was a recast of fanmade armor, the argument was did he have rights to it and could he recast fanmade armor. Then it was found out that Brian Muir sculpted the armor, so all that was left was the helmet with no one accounted for who sculpted it and AA claiming the molds were the sculpture. Those were simple arguments. But it seems you like to construe things to implicate the intentional support of lies.
Seeing as how he used someone else's work for the stand and someone else's work for the armor and lied about having the original molds (as even I could see, and I know jack squat about trooper helmets) and bent the truth and change his pitch numerous times in response to people bringing his fabrications to his attention (I'll leave his lying about actually sculpting the helmets out, since that only came to light during the trial) , I can't help but wonder just how many other "benefits of the doubt" you and others were willing to give him for his lies and thievery before you'd finally see him for the shady human being he is. Not only that, but the fact some of you sound genuinely shocked that he would try to take credit for the sculpt that Liz Moore created, after seeing him try and take credit for the work of others all along (MR's stand, the armor with clear tells from another maker, etc.) is hysterical, bordering on frightening.
It boggled my mind that people could not see at least those two differences. I don't know if the vision was clouded by owning a piece of "screen used mold" history or what.
You cats know I am one of the Anti crowd, but I don't think you guys supported lies. I think you were duped by one of the assembly line people from ANH. All of this bitterness regarding this or that member is all horse***** to me. As has been said before, it's all plastic and fiberglass. The debating back and forth is a fun way to break up the day. There were some good arguments for the Pro-AA crowd, but those were few and far between.
Whether the pieces depreciate in value or not is not important to those who bought SDS pieces. If you are like me, you are going to keep what you have and the odds of you ever selling are slim and none. Slim is packing his bags, getting ready to leave. Hell, SL paid a tidy sum of money for one of his prize pieces. Despite some remarks from folks who are markedly anti-community most times, community when it suits them, we are all part of the same Geekdom.
To me, not knowing the full story about Ainsworth when I found out about the deal, I sincerely thought it as some charlatan trying to take and claim a piece of my childhood for his own. That is what hacked me off. I know it seems hokey to some of you, but that is how I personally saw it. I know that all of these things I grew to love as a kid sprang from the fertile imagination of Lucas and his hired gun artisans. Andrew Ainsworth may be a lot of things, but he is NO artisan.
Good Lord Almighty!!!!
Why is this so hard people? Grow up already!!! This whole thread can be boiled down to...
AA Lied! The truth is now out.
Anti-AA'ers are thrilled. They are dancing and yelling "Told ya so". Some are really rubbing it in as payback. They doubted AA and fussed since day one. Regardless of motives, they argued at every turn that AA's claims were crap. Some argued so vehemently they were banned.
Pro-AA's are sad. They are now faced with "Told ya so" and in light of that, they are squirming to avoid making the statement "I was wrong". They drank the AA Kool-aid. They overlooked glaring issues in favor of "a piece of history".
The pro's need to be gracious. The Anti's need to be humble. Gino needs to play nice with other people's pictures. AA needs to panhandle so he can pay his upcoming debts and everyone needs to thank Brian Muir and Liz Moore.
Oh yes and mods since the Moog was right about AA after all, you ought to invite him back.