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  1. Turret n' Probot moffeaton's Avatar
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #1

    I have an observation or eleven about this forum.

    Being honest, I *want* to roll my eyes when I read the same old "this place is different, humbug!" posts, but I understand that the human brain does not like change. The RPF evolved, grew exponentially, and those of us who remember (fondly or not so fondly) the tighter-knit "club" days are indeed inclined to pine for them. But I guess I'm one of those weirdos that rolls with the punches, and can still find massive satisfaction in my hobby.

    May I suggest we all take a moment, step back, and think about why we are here.

    • Build for yourself. Make each model better. Share what you can and want to.

    • If you do not want to share, SHUT UP ABOUT IT and just don't share. No one will know you have "secrets" and therefore no one will be able to judge you for better or worse.

    • Understand there are a lot of different skill levels at play here, and that you yourself started off as a newb once, too. This is a strange forum, full of new meat and old cranky men in the corner. Half of us have paid some pretty expensive and hard won dues, and half have done exactly squat/nothing/crap. You understand the dynamics? This means that there will ALWAYS be a person asking for help. This is sometimes genuine, heartfelt, and born from a desire to grow and "do good" in the forum, and get some dues paid. Sometimes it's motivated by greed, or something seen as "untoward". It's up to us to make that personal determination, and we can choose to help or not. But for the love of god, if you're negative with a response, you are sabotaging this hobby by killing the enthusiasm of your fellow modeler - what if they are inarticulate and just want a leg up on something, and you've told them to "get stuffed"? That's really discouraging, and really not cool. Staying silent is far more effective - the original poster will get the message if they eat static. This segues nicely into my next thought, and it's probably the one I'm most bummed about:

    •*There is apparently now a line in the sand between kit builders and scratch builders that goes beyond the delineation these approaches should have. Look, any one can see that a guy making a model from NOTHING has some pretty serious chops. And that the guy making that same model from a resin kit is going to have a much easier time, and will spend less money and get it done faster - with different tangible results. We know a scratch built model is going to be (in the right hands, anyway) a crisp, massively badass model, while the resin kit will have drawbacks in undercuts, or maybe accuracy, etc. They are DIFFERENT approaches, and a BOTH ACCEPTABLE and VALID CHOICES. Why are scratch builders touting their craft as not only "far superior" but "the only valid way to do the job" now? It's elitist in all the worst ways, and I'm really embarrassed for this forum every time I see someone downplay the resin kit version of something that has also been scratch built. Can everyone agree that kit builders have a right to be here too, please? I say this as someone that straddles both camps, and I can honestly say I ENJOY making resin kits, AND scratch builds.

    We all know I'm talking about the Probe Droid, right? I'm building both a scratch build and a resin kit and I see some judgmental posts about the kit that strike me as unfair. The resin kit is excellent. It is far more accurate and easier to manage than the first iteration (which I might add was something Rolando was brave and talented enough to do in the first place, as a one-off no less!!), and there is a need for this kit. Not everyone has the funds, talent, time, or self-confidence to build one from nothing. And not even "nothing" in this case, as we're all "cheating" by using some very exciting vac-formed KIT pieces, right?

    This is a fun, exciting, expensive (ooof), rewarding, and social hobby. It lets us RPF old timers feel the rush of ID and discovery (like the "good old days" of prop building), and it lets new meat strut their stuff. It can be exceptionally social - I have friends all over the world that I chat with about plastic model kits that I would have never been able to meet if it wasn't for this forum. Let's respect our fellow modeler, and keep different approaches and skill levels in mind.

    You can still pass judgement, you know! Judge the final piece. If it's good, it gets comments and stays on the first page for a little bit. Crappy models or ones no one cares about just sink into the muck, and always will.

    Enthusiasm is contagious. But so is bitchiness. Keep that in mind, you dorks!
    Last edited by moffeaton; Jun 26, 2012 at 9:29 AM.
  2. RPF Staff Art Andrews's Avatar
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #2

    As a relative outsider to the modeling forums, this is a real shame, but not all that surprising. Scale Modeling is already the smallest of our "big 3" focus areas and yet we have that smallest section subdivided based on scale because the studio scale people didn't like the non-studio scale people. I can't be all that surprised to see there is now a growing divide between kit-builders and scratch builders. What a shame, since this is already an area that is slowly fading, that those who love model building aren't banding together to try to keep the flame alive as long as possible.
  3. Turret n' Probot moffeaton's Avatar
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #3

    Aw hell, it's terminal, doc?!

    Yeah, I feel the same way. It's a blip on radar in the hobby world, which on the whole always seems to lose ground annually to video games and other passive media, and it's a vital subject matter with a lot of unbroken ground, still. This alone is amazing to me - that there is "virgin replica territory" yet to be tackled from Star Wars! Yet here we are, dying on the vine?!
  4. Formerly NightEyes
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #4

    I remember when I figured out that I could build models the same size as the filming miniatures. What a thrill!

    I guess I still feel that way, and heck, I get the same thrill from my Fujimi spinner.

    I often feel oblivious to the pulse of the Studio Scale attitudes. Personally, I think of our projects as an art form and not just an accurate model. I hold the belief if you build it, the help will come. This has been my experience around here and while I'm very project specific I always try to help anyone working on something I already have done. Because its all I really have to offer, I cherish the ability to help a project like my own.
  5. Turret n' Probot moffeaton's Avatar
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #5

    Yer one of the good ones

    You need to be a little more cranky though... just a smidge.
  6. REL is offline
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #6

    Never have an elitist attitude, because there's always someone out there better at it and will put you in your place. Plus, having an elitist attitude closes your mind to new possibilities and allows ego to be at the forefront of your thinking, and that will cause you to stagnate.
  7. Turret n' Probot moffeaton's Avatar
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #7

    Well said. I've always said that I love not being "the best" at anything... because I know I always can do better. I like having something to aspire to.
  8. Formerly NightEyes
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #8

    Posted before thought was finished...

    One time I offered my thoughts on a new kit, only to find my posts ignored. Because I had cast the very same parts in the past I felt I could really save them a headache. My posts went ignored, the same problems arose, and we're eventually overcome after some time. I am not offended but am I an elitist because I don't like how the resin parts differ from the original kit parts? No, because I would never diminish someone's final work and say those tiny square holes should be open.

    For me the dream is very much alive. I've yet to share a droid strip, but in this year and a half, someone else's scratch build revealed a detail that helped me improve my pattern. I hope to offer more than just individual parts some day, and I'll still be thrilled the day I have that one part to share.

    If there's a line in the sand, I'm over in the pool having a drink not having a clue about beach controversy. And I like it that way.
  9. Watson's Avatar
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #9

    moffeaton said: View Post
    Well said. I've always said that I love not being "the best" at anything... because I know I always can do better. I like having something to aspire to.
    Well you truly suck at trying not to be the best
  10. RPF Premium Member ralphee's Avatar
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #10

    "Y'all know me......said Quint.......yeah, im a crank, cranky as hell, sarcastic too, but, "most" of the time, i feel im valid.

    There is a divide, between the kit, and scratch builders. It IS an elitist divide, not to all, but a few now, WONT build a kit, because its....gasp, resin!
    A wake up call for the ones who need to know, A HUGE number of the original props were resin, or had resin plant ons, deal with it.
    Im suffering of late, because it seems ive developed an allergy to the damned stuff (my hands blister after a while working with it) so, id rather work in styrene, but there are some things, i CANT do myself.

    Jason you mentioned the PD, yes, there has been a little bit of bad blood, a lot on my part with that, but, do you also know, i pulled out of the vac kit too, why, because i DONT need a new PD.....i dont need self validation to know my PD is styrene, its time for me to move one lol, life, is too short, and i find it sad to keep building the same model, over and over lol.

    I never want to be elitist, if i ever was, or have been, id like to be slapped around the face and neck, i do this, because i LOVE it, and i know im more honest than i should be i guess, but thats just me, im not a devil, and id hope more than a few here would attest, id go the extra mile for any of you guys.

    This place has changed ill add though, for better or worse, i cant say anymore, so many dont want to do there own work, or make there own ID's, they want to ride of the backs, of others VERY hard work, that, makes me annoyed TBH, its not like i joined up and was given the keys to the city......anyhow, im rambling

    lee
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #11

    ralphee said: View Post
    ......anyhow, im rambling

    lee
    Its almost Happy Hour over there Lee, so you are excused
  12. Turret n' Probot moffeaton's Avatar
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #12

    Lee, much love, bruddah!

    The work you did on your PD is massive, and it's embarrassing to think of the kit I sent you ages ago, lol! I tried, I really did! LOL

    I think there's ALWAYS been a contingent that has wanted to ride on the hard work of others... we can ride it out!
  13. RPF Premium Member ralphee's Avatar
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #13

    Greg, and i havent even touched the Sherry yet .

    Jason, back at ya, you know that lol, that old PD, is gracing somebody's living room right now, and they must be VERY happy with it, so, its not all bad lol.

    lee
  14. Formerly Orange Mechanic Nwerke's Avatar
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #14

    I can get building in resin because you find building in styrene or foam or wood or whatever intimidating. (I LOVE a good garage kit, love 'em to bits, they're what fires off my leftover kid's Christmas tree neurones.) I can't get not building in resin because it's somehow something to sneer at. Is that the problem? If that is an attitude that is really coming in then we need to stow that crap, now, because it's like fighting over deck chairs on the Titanic. Let's grow this hobby, not subdivide it to death. Dudes...models! Models good!!!!
  15. REL is offline
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #15

    A lot of times the repairs and modifications people do to build a resin kit will give them the required skillset to tackle a stand alone scratchbuild, so it's not all bad.
  16. RPF Premium Member ralphee's Avatar
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #16

    Nwerke said: View Post
    I can get building in resin because you find building in styrene or foam or wood or whatever intimidating. (I LOVE a good garage kit, love 'em to bits, they're what fires off my leftover kid's Christmas tree neurones.) I can't get not building in resin because it's somehow something to sneer at. Is that the problem? If that is an attitude that is really coming in then we need to stow that crap, now, because it's like fighting over deck chairs on the Titanic. Let's grow this hobby, not subdivide it to death. Dudes...models! Models good!!!!
    Its not just coming, its HERE Martyn, right in this very board .

    lee
  17. RPF Premium Member ralphee's Avatar
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #17

    REL said: View Post
    A lot of times the repairs and modifications people do to build a resin kit will give them the required skillset to tackle a stand alone scratchbuild, so it's not all bad.
    Ill attest to that, i think a great number of us here Rich have modded the heck out of a GK, only to drag in way into scratchbuilding territory anyway!

    lee
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #18

    I've noticed this across both studio scale and general modeling . Interestingly there seem to be groups forming. Some with a pack mentality. Unfortunately I think there are reluctant Hero's whose fan base has created a false idol. Anyhow from someone who is about to attempt a firstish scratch build I see masters of this art, but as you said Jason there is always room for improvement.
  19. Formerly Orange Mechanic Nwerke's Avatar
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #19

    ralphee said: View Post
    Its not just coming, its HERE Martyn, right in this very board .

    lee
    Bah, if it's just you that doesn't count, Lee. We mostly know how to take you by now.
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #20

    Art Andrews said: View Post
    As a relative outsider to the modeling forums, this is a real shame, but not all that surprising. Scale Modeling is already the smallest of our "big 3" focus areas and yet we have that smallest section subdivided based on scale because the studio scale people didn't like the non-studio scale people. I can't be all that surprised to see there is now a growing divide between kit-builders and scratch builders. What a shame, since this is already an area that is slowly fading, that those who love model building aren't banding together to try to keep the flame alive as long as possible.
    Well, this forum was created back in the days when there was a fixed number of 500 threads on the RPF. That meant every time a new thread was created, one entire thread disappeared. Forever. Since the studio scale threads were mainly dedicated to research and builds, they tended to be updated infrequently and unless they were bumped from time to time, all that hard work would simply vanish. A lot of early work was lost that way.

    This forum was created to prevent that from happening, and it existed for years before there was ever a General Modeling forum. In fact, when that forum was brought up for discussion several of us opposed it, pointing out that there were already several well-established sci-fi modeling boards, most of which most of us already frequented as well.

    Of course, this was the "Replica Prop Forum", and one of the main arguments for a dedicated studio-scale modeling forum here was that they are replicas of actual props, the original miniatures themselves. The Replica Prop Forum.

    General models aren't even replica props, IMO, which was another argument against the creation of the General Modeling forum way back when.
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #21

    I have barley touched the surface here and i doubt i will ever do a scratch build but i have already found that every person that i have asked questions from they have gone all out to help no mater how dumb the questions might be.
    I have also found a new admiration to scratch builders as I now know the costs involved and personally just trying to track down a few parts to make a resin kit better has my head spinning.
  22. RPF Premium Member ralphee's Avatar
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #22

    Nwerke said: View Post
    Bah, if it's just you that doesn't count, Lee. We mostly know how to take you by now.
    Love ya, Martyn !

    lee
  23. Turret n' Probot moffeaton's Avatar
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #23

    Yeah, Lee is a puppy dog. One hell of a bark though!
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #24

    REL said: View Post
    Never have an elitist attitude, because there's always someone out there better at it and will put you in your place. Plus, having an elitist attitude closes your mind to new possibilities and allows ego to be at the forefront of your thinking, and that will cause you to stagnate.
    Now that's saying somethign coming from you

    I've built both, but tend to not be the worlds best scratch builder. I get better with each attempt... Well to be honest there have been some complete abominations... I like both. I get an emmense amount of satisfaction out of creating something from nothing.

    However if I scratched everything I'd have like 2 models in my collection - I build that slowly... and who wants to have only two models

    In all honsety - VERY few of us have built a model completely from scratch... It almost always involves and email/phone call 2AM IM (that is answered) to a buddy (or future buddy) who has a part you need, and will cast it up for you or <gasp> lend it to you for you to cast. The collaborative nature of reverse engineering what was built essentially at random construction effort buy the studio guys is amazing - and what sucked me into this crazy hobby

    While I do think that the scratch builders among us do have a higher skill level in general - in construction... I do agree with REL - There is always someone who is better than you at some aspect of the build...

    Because lets face it its hard to be an expert at all of the skills required. sculpting, part ID'ing, construction techniques, casting, vacu-forming, painting, weathering, kitbashing etc, etc... or just plain someone has more time to devote to it geting it perfect.

    I do have to admit I am one of those old men that miss the old days... but I'm not an ***** about it

    Jedi Dade
  25. Turret n' Probot moffeaton's Avatar
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    Jun 26, 2012 - Re: Thoughts on Studio Scale Elitism Disease (and treatment options) #25

    True about modding a resin kit - gateway to scratch building. This was my tipping point:

    Jason Eaton » Blog Archive » Studio Scale ANH Escape Pod
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